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Barrel Nut Disadvantages?

urbanrifleman said:
You talk a lot of crap. I wonder if you would do that in person. It seems anyone who reacts to your comments is "defensive".
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I talk about what I think, what I know, and can prove. I ask questions. I am also persuadable and admit when I am wrong, but the bar is high. My focus is on theory, results, and personal experience. If that is "crap", then I talk crap all the time in person.

Not everyone can handle a vigorous
debate of ideas......

EDIT: You added stuff to your post that I am quoting after I replied, so I have more to address.

I have tested various barrel attachment methods, and found that nothing works as well as a shouldered barrel. My argument is not that a barrel nut is a bad way to do things, but that it's doesn't provide as solid and supportive of an attachment as a shouldered barrel.

So my point of contention is with the idea that a barrel nut is superior to a shouldered barrel. I don't dispute that barrel nut will work fine for many applications and is a good choice for many shooters.
 
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Alex Wheeler said:
Strong opinions from different sides makes something worth reading. Much better than reading theres more than one way to skin a cat wrong for the 100th time.
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Funny thing, I don't have a strong opinion on this. Aside from the pissing match, I think there is good info on this thread, and if the thread was cleaned up I wouldn't be offended......
 
INTJ said:
So my point of contention is with the idea that a barrel nut is superior to a shouldered barrel.
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I am still trying to scan this thread to see anyone who said that...

Other than you, who keeps inferring the opposite.

As most of these things what are bantered around as "facts", there is absolutely no evidence to support one system or the other as being better or worse. I have NO PROBLEM with anyone who has an opinion one way or the other, if it is stated as such. An opinion. Completely unsubstantiated, by the way, by any real data.

It was when he you started that "post your 1000 yard group" horse stink is when I lost my patience. That is NOT DEBATE about nuts or shoulders, that is simply a goading of me personally. And you talk about being offended... Seriously.
 
This is a pretty easy thing to quantify. Take a top flight barrel, a top level platform (13.5 lb. HV Benchrest rifle), chamber it for a supremely accurate cartridge (30BR) and do the barrel as conventional shouldered fit up. Test it.

Then, extend the threads forward and fit it up with a nut. Test it.

Testing would be with a proven shooter over flags at 100 and 200 yards.

A double blind test would be best...two shooters evaluating this in parallel testing with no sharing of results until the testing was completed.
 
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urbanrifleman said:
I am still trying to scan this thread to see anyone who said that...

Other than you, who keeps inferring the opposite.

As most of these things what are bantered around as "facts", there is absolutely no evidence to support one system or the other as being better or worse. I have NO PROBLEM with anyone who has an opinion one way or the other, if it is stated as such. An opinion. Completely unsubstantiated, by the way, by any real data.

It was when he you started that "post your 1000 yard group" horse stink is when I lost my patience. That is NOT DEBATE about nuts or shoulders, that is simply a goading of me personally. And you talk about being offended... Seriously.
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Again, I am not offended. My amusement has turned to maybe a little disappointment that the thread went this way. I was hoping we'd be discussing barrel support and alignment, barrel droop, etc on a barrel nut vs a shouldered barrel and how that shows up on long range targets. I suspect that that a barrel nut works fine until a certain weight/length of barrel and then it doesn't. That would track with what I saw with all those barrels for which I developed loads on those "hand-tight, barrel clamp" setups.

My 1000 yd groups are validation of my thoughts on this. It shows that I am not just some guy talking, but I actually shoot and get good results. These groups are actual data points that do indeed substantiate my idea.

It also makes it easy to counter my argument by posting similar sized groups from a barrel nut rifle. If that happens, then the debate goes to whether or not that is a one off. It's easy for any of us to talk, but in the shooting world, the target is our final arbitrator as to what works and what doesn't.

MikeCR did talk about a barrel nut being superior, like a stud on an engine. Both Alex and I addressed that.

So it's up to you. I am still interested in discussing barrel support and alignment, barrel droop, etc on a barrel nut vs a shouldered barrel and how that shows up on long range targets.
 
AlNyhus said:
This is a pretty easy thing to quantify. Take a top flight barrel, a top level platform (13.5 lb. HV Benchrest rifle), chamber it for a supremely accurate cartridge (30BR) and do the barrel as conventional shouldered fit up. Test it.

Then, extend the threads forward and fit it up with a nut. Test it.

Testing would be with a proven shooter over flags at 100 and 200 yards.

A double blind test would be best...two shooters evaluating this in parallel testing with no sharing of results until the testing was completed.
Click to expand...

I have several barrels that were chambered the same with the same blanks. Half were nuts. The best barrel was actually a nut barrel.

I've done about 300 nut barrels. Mine shoot shockingly well. Even beyond my expectations.

My opinion is that they are the same. I certainly not of the opinion that nuts "are good enough for half moa" as was stated before, and shoulders are " superior".
 
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urbanrifleman said:
I have several barrels that were chambered the same with the same blanks. Half were nuts. The best barrel was actually a nut barrel.

I've done about 300 nut barrels. Mine shoot shockingly well. Even beyond my expectations.

My opinion is that they are the same. I certainly not of the opinion that nuts "are good enough for half moa" as was stated before, and shoulders are " superior".
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So you're on board for unbiased testing to be done?
 
INTJ said:
So it's up to you. I am still interested in discussing barrel support and alignment, barrel droop, etc on a barrel nut vs a shouldered barrel and how that shows up on long range targets.

I proposed an absolutely brilliant idea a page or two back of alignment shims to be placed between barrel nut or barrel shoulder and action. (or recoil lug) At least I thought it was brilliant.;)

Y'alls pissin match took off and my whole idea got ignored along with any expert critique that I may have received.

I don't think that anyone here is dumb enough to believe that EITHER system is the BEST for all situations. This almost seems like a crescent wrench vs vice grip argument. :rolleyes: jd
 
INTJ said:
Again, I am not offended. My amusement has turned to maybe a little disappointment that the thread went this way. I was hoping we'd be discussing barrel support and alignment, barrel droop, etc on a barrel nut vs a shouldered barrel and how that shows up on long range targets. I suspect that that a barrel nut works fine until a certain weight/length of barrel and then it doesn't. That would track with what I saw with all those barrels for which I developed loads on those "hand-tight, barrel clamp" setups.

My 1000 yd groups are validation of my thoughts on this. It shows that I am not just some guy talking, but I actually shoot and get good results. These groups are actual data points that do indeed substantiate my idea.

It also makes it easy to counter my argument by posting similar sized groups from a barrel nut rifle. If that happens, then the debate goes to whether or not that is a one off. It's easy for any of us to talk, but in the shooting world, the target is our final arbitrator as to what works and what doesn't.

MikeCR did talk about a barrel nut being superior, like a stud on an engine. Both Alex and I addressed that.

So it's up to you. I am still interested in discussing barrel support and alignment, barrel droop, etc on a barrel nut vs a shouldered barrel and how that shows up on long range targets.
Click to expand...
I was a mechanic for 15 years. Did I learn a lot ? Yes, did I still have cases here and there that stomped my tail ? Yes !!! Studs and nuts are superior Vs bolts in clamping a head down to a block. Yes studs do help line each other up. A head bolt when torquing it down, the resistance is against the head itself and also the block, the shank twists depending on the grade of the bolt and possibly inconsistent threads in the block. Each bolt very likely even when torqued the same ft lbs not all will be the same. Studs and nuts don’t have this problem as the studs are already tight in the block, more even torque can be applied to all the nuts securing it to the block. Only resistance is between the nut and the head. Does it relate to the barrel world I don’t know.
 
AlNyhus said:
This is a pretty easy thing to quantify. Take a top flight barrel, a top level platform (13.5 lb. HV Benchrest rifle), chamber it for a supremely accurate cartridge (30BR) and do the barrel as conventional shouldered fit up. Test it.

Then, extend the threads forward and fit it up with a nut. Test it.

Testing would be with a proven shooter over flags at 100 and 200 yards.

A double blind test would be best...two shooters evaluating this in parallel testing with no sharing of results until the testing was completed.
Click to expand...
Now that would be a good read. PS: I thought this was a good match. I think it is not over.
 
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