Barrel Nitriding: 11,000 round update
- Thread starter Matt Pitchon
- Start date
butchlambert
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Buck 89 said:
What facts do you have that it ruined the barrel other than they told you that?
shortgrass
Silver $$ Contributor
You're fightin' a losing battle, Butch. His buddy told him so, or he read it on the internet, so it must be true.
My experience with barrel throats burning out has me tearing my hair out. I had a .17 Tactical barrel go south on me after 350 to 400 rounds. I even went so far as to have the barrel set back about an inch and that didn't improve it much, but it still shoots coyote minute of accuracy, but the throat is pretty toasty looking. I just changed out a .17 Remington barrel that had 1,232 rounds down the tube and it looked like an alligator hide in the throat area.
I have a friend whose buddy did some Rockwell hardness tests on five different barrels (3 different makers) and he found the one had an 18 Rockwell Hardness, another a 27 RH, and 3 barrels from another maker had RH of 24, 25, & 26. I believe the minimum RH is supposed to be 28. I think some of my barrels must have been in the "LEMON" category like the barrels mentioned above.
So, with that in mind, I had been reading about the nitride treatment on barrels and decided to give it a try. What the heck, it's only money and if I leave any behind when I die my kids will just fight over it anyway. ;D
I decided to have H&M Metal Processing do their BLACKNITRIDETM process on three stainless steel barrels. One was a .204 caliber super match grade Pac-Nor, one was a .17 Remington caliber Lilja barrel and the third one was a Brux done in .22-250 caliber. I was told by Shade McMillen at H&M to shoot at least 30 shots through each barrel in a normal break-in process. I did that.
I was also told by Shade McMillen that unlike many other companies that treat barrels, they use an ultrasonic cleaner to clean the inside and outside of customer's barrels so all traces of powder, carbon, copper, etc. are removed from the barrel before they ever begin the BLACKNITRIDETM process.
When I talked to him I told him I had heard that it was extremely difficult to get all of the "junk" from the process out of the barrels and wondered if they would use their ultrasonic cleaner to clean my barrels. It sounded like he was going to do that. Unfortunately, they did not to that to my barrels. That "junk" is EXTREMELY difficult to get out of the barrel and chamber. I do have a Hawkeye bore scope and after hours of cleaning time for each barrel I finally got two of them clean. It took another hour to get the .204 Ruger Pac-Nor barrel free from the "junk".
If I could figure out a way to work on cleaning the barrels BEFORE they were reinstalled on the actions, I think I would go that route. I just worry about whether my rod guides would work well with no action to support them and only the short distance of the chamber to keep the rod straight. It was a real challenge to get the "junk" cleaned out of the chamber, but the chamber would have been a lot easier to clean BEFORE it was installed on the action.
It cost me $30 to ship the barrels to H&M Metal Processing. I was told that they charge $200 to do a complete rifle and Shade said he would do all three barrels for that same $200 price tag, plus they charged $40 to ship the barrels back. This was back in October of this year. My barrels were shipped back to my gunsmith on October 23, 2013. I haven't shot all of the rifles enough times since they were treated and got the barrels cleaned up to form any opinion about the effectiveness of the treatment, how it affected the accuracy of the barrels, or how it affected the velocity of my loads.
The final cost for this process and the shipping came to $90 per barrel. If I get an increase in barrel life of 25% to 50% it will have been well worth the expense. As most of you know it is not inexpensive to buy barrels and then have them chambered, and installed. I don't do any of my own rifle work. I'm hoping I'll get double the barrel life, but I'm not going to bet any money that I will get twice as many shots out of each barrel.
My Lilja barreled .17 Remington with the treated barrel is the only rifle I have shot extensively since I got that barrel cleaned. I have shot 61 test shots through this .17 Remington since I cleaned the barrel and it is quite accurate. I haven't had time to do much load testing with the Brux barrel which is installed on my Tikka Master Sporter and is chambered in .22-250. My Savage 12VLP action has the SS super match grade 1 in 11 twist 3-groove treated barrel and I just finished getting all the "junk" out of that barrel last week. I did shoot a number of shots through it before it was totally clean and the accuracy WAS NOT GOOD!!! :'( I am hoping and praying that the accuracy will be much better now that the barrel is clean. Otherwise, this will have been an expensive waste of time and money.
Before having these barrels treated I was coating my bullets with hBN. My test loads have all been with hBN coated bullets. On my next trip to the range I will try some bare bullets shot over my chronograph and then shoot the same weight powder charges and weight bullets with hBN coating to see if there's any difference in velocity and point of impact.
What are the experiences of some of you other shooters with this barrel treatment process???
I have a friend whose buddy did some Rockwell hardness tests on five different barrels (3 different makers) and he found the one had an 18 Rockwell Hardness, another a 27 RH, and 3 barrels from another maker had RH of 24, 25, & 26. I believe the minimum RH is supposed to be 28. I think some of my barrels must have been in the "LEMON" category like the barrels mentioned above.
So, with that in mind, I had been reading about the nitride treatment on barrels and decided to give it a try. What the heck, it's only money and if I leave any behind when I die my kids will just fight over it anyway. ;D
I decided to have H&M Metal Processing do their BLACKNITRIDETM process on three stainless steel barrels. One was a .204 caliber super match grade Pac-Nor, one was a .17 Remington caliber Lilja barrel and the third one was a Brux done in .22-250 caliber. I was told by Shade McMillen at H&M to shoot at least 30 shots through each barrel in a normal break-in process. I did that.
I was also told by Shade McMillen that unlike many other companies that treat barrels, they use an ultrasonic cleaner to clean the inside and outside of customer's barrels so all traces of powder, carbon, copper, etc. are removed from the barrel before they ever begin the BLACKNITRIDETM process.
When I talked to him I told him I had heard that it was extremely difficult to get all of the "junk" from the process out of the barrels and wondered if they would use their ultrasonic cleaner to clean my barrels. It sounded like he was going to do that. Unfortunately, they did not to that to my barrels. That "junk" is EXTREMELY difficult to get out of the barrel and chamber. I do have a Hawkeye bore scope and after hours of cleaning time for each barrel I finally got two of them clean. It took another hour to get the .204 Ruger Pac-Nor barrel free from the "junk".
If I could figure out a way to work on cleaning the barrels BEFORE they were reinstalled on the actions, I think I would go that route. I just worry about whether my rod guides would work well with no action to support them and only the short distance of the chamber to keep the rod straight. It was a real challenge to get the "junk" cleaned out of the chamber, but the chamber would have been a lot easier to clean BEFORE it was installed on the action.
It cost me $30 to ship the barrels to H&M Metal Processing. I was told that they charge $200 to do a complete rifle and Shade said he would do all three barrels for that same $200 price tag, plus they charged $40 to ship the barrels back. This was back in October of this year. My barrels were shipped back to my gunsmith on October 23, 2013. I haven't shot all of the rifles enough times since they were treated and got the barrels cleaned up to form any opinion about the effectiveness of the treatment, how it affected the accuracy of the barrels, or how it affected the velocity of my loads.
The final cost for this process and the shipping came to $90 per barrel. If I get an increase in barrel life of 25% to 50% it will have been well worth the expense. As most of you know it is not inexpensive to buy barrels and then have them chambered, and installed. I don't do any of my own rifle work. I'm hoping I'll get double the barrel life, but I'm not going to bet any money that I will get twice as many shots out of each barrel.
My Lilja barreled .17 Remington with the treated barrel is the only rifle I have shot extensively since I got that barrel cleaned. I have shot 61 test shots through this .17 Remington since I cleaned the barrel and it is quite accurate. I haven't had time to do much load testing with the Brux barrel which is installed on my Tikka Master Sporter and is chambered in .22-250. My Savage 12VLP action has the SS super match grade 1 in 11 twist 3-groove treated barrel and I just finished getting all the "junk" out of that barrel last week. I did shoot a number of shots through it before it was totally clean and the accuracy WAS NOT GOOD!!! :'( I am hoping and praying that the accuracy will be much better now that the barrel is clean. Otherwise, this will have been an expensive waste of time and money.
Before having these barrels treated I was coating my bullets with hBN. My test loads have all been with hBN coated bullets. On my next trip to the range I will try some bare bullets shot over my chronograph and then shoot the same weight powder charges and weight bullets with hBN coating to see if there's any difference in velocity and point of impact.
What are the experiences of some of you other shooters with this barrel treatment process???
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
I can't post much as somebody makes the thread disappear when I do.
Silverfox said:
Buy yourself a length of 1-1/2" PVC Drain pipe, then cut off a length about that of one of your barrels.
When you buy the pipe, buy a role of 1" masking tape too. Then use that to wrap around the barrel at the breech end & someplace back from the muzzle about as far as your rod guide is long. When you've wrapped enough tape around both places so the barrel is a slip-fit into the PVC pipe you cut off, do the same thing with your rod guide.
Once the wrapping's done, insert guide into chamber then insert the two items into the PVC pipe & have at it!
shortgrass
Silver $$ Contributor
That's an easy one! Clean the barrels before reinstalling them! I have had 4 barrels treated that are on personal rifles. I've, also, had about 35 others treated that went onto customers rifles. I always clean the bore before reinstalling it. Some clean up in an hour, some two hours. I include the clean up time in with the charge for treating (shipping, too). I have had nothing but positive results, whether treated at MMI or H&M. With some real 'elbow grease' applied (while cleaning) I or my customers have seen no degradation in accuracy, and a slight increase in velocity. Without a proper cleaning, I can see where accuracy might suffer.Silverfox said:
Ok, so.....chrome lined barrels are what they are, cheap and inconsistent over time. It's a "layer" applied to the bore of the rifle barrel and in preparation of such, the barrel MUST be over bored to compensate for the thickness of the applied coating. After time, and a certain number of rounds, the chrome will actually wear away and expose the raw steel. As well as its inherent properties to cause fluctuations in its final product due to slight variations in its molecular structure, material preparation, quality of substrate, and in some cases, ambient temperature and weather all can lead to imperfections in the bore as highs and lows, Pitts, or even "chunks" that shorten barrel life or hinder it inaccurate right out of the box.
But it is easy and relatively cheap to do. Now nitride/melonite treatment (both are the same, just variants on the name) allow the rifle bore to be true and without "over boring " and allows for much tighter tolerances in the production process, increases hardness of the metal, and is bonded at a molecular level which makes it nearly impossible to remove, or be worn down. It's alot smoother which aids in the expelling of projectiles, and limits the ability of lubricants to cling with foreign particles attached. Oh, and it's comparably the same cost to do and much better of an end result. Compare this, two barrels both of equal length and twist (1:7 in this case which is by far the best twist) firing 5.56 nato fmj 55 grn. The chrome lined, chromium, AND stainless barrels started to dump off after 6K rounds belt fed on full auto. (yes even the beloved stainless steel barrel fails due to its brittle molecular structure) but the nitride/melonite barrel cruised through over 11K rounds and never looked back. Bore scope inspection noted "extreme wear and metal tear out on the chrome barrels, heat galling on the stainless (which is pretty dam bad) and minimal evidence of wear on the nitride/melonite barrel". I too WAS a chrome fan, but I have seen the light and will be converting to nitride/melonite asap. Build it for full battle conditions and it'll outlast whatever you do on a day to day basis, and if need be, your battle ready. I'm anxious to hear the replies and counter thoughts, I'm sure they'll be coming.
But it is easy and relatively cheap to do. Now nitride/melonite treatment (both are the same, just variants on the name) allow the rifle bore to be true and without "over boring " and allows for much tighter tolerances in the production process, increases hardness of the metal, and is bonded at a molecular level which makes it nearly impossible to remove, or be worn down. It's alot smoother which aids in the expelling of projectiles, and limits the ability of lubricants to cling with foreign particles attached. Oh, and it's comparably the same cost to do and much better of an end result. Compare this, two barrels both of equal length and twist (1:7 in this case which is by far the best twist) firing 5.56 nato fmj 55 grn. The chrome lined, chromium, AND stainless barrels started to dump off after 6K rounds belt fed on full auto. (yes even the beloved stainless steel barrel fails due to its brittle molecular structure) but the nitride/melonite barrel cruised through over 11K rounds and never looked back. Bore scope inspection noted "extreme wear and metal tear out on the chrome barrels, heat galling on the stainless (which is pretty dam bad) and minimal evidence of wear on the nitride/melonite barrel". I too WAS a chrome fan, but I have seen the light and will be converting to nitride/melonite asap. Build it for full battle conditions and it'll outlast whatever you do on a day to day basis, and if need be, your battle ready. I'm anxious to hear the replies and counter thoughts, I'm sure they'll be coming.
Raythemanroe
Bullet Whisperer
lexluthor364 said:
Accuracy, How is the finish on jackets? Tests seem to be steered to strength and not that of accuracy.
Ray
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
Ray,
Did you see my email from an Army armorer? His extensive tests with several treated barrels on machine rest showed accuracy to be the same. They just last a good deal longer. Your question on jacket finish? I'm wondering what you are referring to.
Did you see my email from an Army armorer? His extensive tests with several treated barrels on machine rest showed accuracy to be the same. They just last a good deal longer. Your question on jacket finish? I'm wondering what you are referring to.
Raythemanroe
Bullet Whisperer
I have a pistol with melonite treatment and it seems more abrasive then chrome or SS.
After further study, my finish is because of metal before treatment..
Ray
After further study, my finish is because of metal before treatment..
Ray
I have a question (I know nothing about these barrel coatings), something that is confusing me is as follows:
If you can fire 25 to 50 rounds before having this procedure done, why not a couple hundred when one can tell if his barrel is really worth saving relative to being capable of outstanding competition accuracy ?
This just didn't make sense to me! :
If you can fire 25 to 50 rounds before having this procedure done, why not a couple hundred when one can tell if his barrel is really worth saving relative to being capable of outstanding competition accuracy ?
This just didn't make sense to me! :
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
Changeling said:I have a question (I know nothing about these barrel coatings), something that is confusing me is as follows:
If you can fire 25 to 50 rounds before having this procedure done, why not a couple hundred when one can tell if his barrel is really worth saving relative to being capable of outstanding competition accuracy ?
This just didn't make sense to me! :
Maybe this will make sense. It does not take 50 rounds to know that your barrel is good or mediocre. I don't want a barrel treated that has alligator starting in it. Melonite QPQ is not a coating.
That's amazing! Thanks for the report.
Why would a barrel start showing alligator (cracking) with 200 rounds through it ?
shortgrass
Silver $$ Contributor
I built a 6XC using a Shilen Select Match , S.S. , Sendero contour barrel. I was loading "middle of the road" rounds with Varget, Norma brass, Fed. LR Match primers and Sierra 107g Match Kings. I'd been keeping an eye on it with the Hawkeye. I decided to have it treated as it had only 55 rds through it. Those nice fresh edges from the chambers end and the throat were gone,,,, not cracked, but well 'rounded over'. I set it back a turn and re-set the head space, then fired 4 rds, cleaned it well (bore scope inspected) and shipped it along with others for treatment. The point is, it only took those 55 rds to start "noticable wear". Why send a barrel for treatment that has "noticable wear"? I could care less about the color, it could come back pink, for all I care. The point is to keep the barrel 'new' for as long as possible.
gaboon said:
Barrels are hardened and tempered? I had no idea!
butchlambert
Site $$ Sponsor
Quote from: gaboon on November 28, 2013, 02:16:06 PM
The temperature that the steel is brought up to during this process is within the range that can remove the temper from the steel if not properly finished potentially causing the steel to become dangerous and not contain the pressures your cartridge will produce.
Gabonny,
I believe the company doing this has not fallen off the turnip truck yet. Our military has many many done and how many have blown up? You can take any process, be it making cheese or treating barrels and can find a way to make it dangerous.
Give me a break, show some links to some that have blown up.
The temperature that the steel is brought up to during this process is within the range that can remove the temper from the steel if not properly finished potentially causing the steel to become dangerous and not contain the pressures your cartridge will produce.
Gabonny,
I believe the company doing this has not fallen off the turnip truck yet. Our military has many many done and how many have blown up? You can take any process, be it making cheese or treating barrels and can find a way to make it dangerous.
Give me a break, show some links to some that have blown up.
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