Barnes bullets performance on game?
- Thread starter mattri
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Here are some Barnes 180gr TSX recovered from elk-sized critters (kudu, gemsbok) shot in Namibia with my Sendero in .300WM, ranges from 90 to 300 yards. Several of them broke shoulders or ribs on entry. Retained weights are 94%, 94%, 96%, 100%, and 100% (mean = 97%). Pretty hard to complain about bullet performance, I'd say. There's an unfired bullet for comparison.
More here: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/namibia-namibia-safari-with-kowas-beginning-to-end.11723/
More here: http://www.africahunting.com/threads/namibia-namibia-safari-with-kowas-beginning-to-end.11723/
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First, I am a believer in complete pass throughs if possible and controlled expansion bullets. I have shot Nosler Partitions, Nosler Accubonds, Nosler Balistic Tips, Swift A Frames, Swift Sciroccos, Speer Soft Points, Sierra Hollow Points, Sierra Game Kings, Hornady Spire Points, Hornady Interlocks, Hornady A Maxs, Hornady Solids, and Barnes X bullets in the TX and TTX. Last year I completely switched to Tipped Triple Shocks. 85 grain in .243 Win, 120 grain in .264 Win Mag, 120 grain in 7mm08 and 280AI, 150 grain in 308, 150, 165, in 30/06, and 180 grain in 300 Win Mag and 300 RUM.
I shot 20 deer with Barnes Tipped Triple shocks from 40-467 yards. The only bullet I recovered was the deer shot at 40 yards. The bullet went from end to end lodging under the skin on the ham. I estimate 4 feet of penetration and 97 percent of bullet weight retention.
Where I hunt, (southeast) if you don't plant a deer where you shoot it you need a good blood trail to find it.
Nat Lambeth
I shot 20 deer with Barnes Tipped Triple shocks from 40-467 yards. The only bullet I recovered was the deer shot at 40 yards. The bullet went from end to end lodging under the skin on the ham. I estimate 4 feet of penetration and 97 percent of bullet weight retention.
Where I hunt, (southeast) if you don't plant a deer where you shoot it you need a good blood trail to find it.
Nat Lambeth
mattri
Silver $$ Contributor
Very interesting replies, thanks.
Have been working with a 338-06 for deer/elk and am having pretty good accuracy with the 225gr Hndy Interlocks.
Am looking at trying some Barnes but had some reservations.
Would be looking for excellent performance out to med ranges on elk.
Have been working with a 338-06 for deer/elk and am having pretty good accuracy with the 225gr Hndy Interlocks.
Am looking at trying some Barnes but had some reservations.
Would be looking for excellent performance out to med ranges on elk.
Rustystud said:
Me, too. Of the 8 animals I shot in Namibia, 7 were shot once and the kudu was shot 3 times (although the first shot would have been enough, I didn't want to lose him!). Of the 10 TSXs fired only 5 were recovered -- the rest passed through. The recovered bullets were on 500-600 pound animals quartering or head-on. The smaller animals (100-300 pounds) couldn't stop the TSX regardless of the shot angle.
I hunt elk for the most part and the best thing that ever happened to me was the day I quit shooting Barnes TSX bullets at elk. I drank and preached the Cool Aid for 15+ years, went back to a no frills cup and core bullet, heavy for cal at moderate velocity and there is no way on earth I'd go back!!! I still shoot the 110 TTSX in my 270 WSM for coyotes and maybe an antelope and I like the Cutting Edge bullets in both my 6.5 SS and the 338 RUM but I still prefer leaded!
wboggs
Gold $$ Contributor
I have used Barnes since they introduced the grooved design. Have over 98 kills in Africa, 3 elk, 50+ deer and have not been disappointed. The tsx open a little faster than the ttsx version. They are accurate and deadly. Mine usually shoot best about 0.06" or so off the rifling. Don't worry about penetration. Use a medium wt. say 180 in .308 or 250gr in .338 and you will get all you need in elk.
Good hunting
Bill
Good hunting
Bill
Go to Barnsbullets . com Then go to youth spotlights Archives Sydney Tolksdorf. See what my 9 year old Grand daughter Did Larry
FeMan
Gold $$ Contributor
I have killed over 100 big game animals with Barnes. Over 10 of them were elk and have never had to shoot an elk twice. Lots of BIG hogs which can be tougher to shoot through than elk. They have performed flawlessly at ranges between 25 yards and 850 yards. I shoot them in 6mm, 6.5mm, .277, 7mm, and 30 cal. Barnes if what I shoot 95% of the time in the field.
Used them in 7mm-160 TSX and 308-168TSX in Africa , !2 head of game upto and including 1900# eland. Only recovered 3 bullets. Eland, hit the Humerus at 60yds, which reduced chest damage, but the bull was down in 90yds and did require follow up. Couple of other follow ups, more to initial shot placement. Very pleased w the results. I tend to use them where possible. Like NC gentleman said, thick cover requires tracking sometimes, here in MD we have marshes and they can make for difficult tracking, Elmer Keith said 2 holes bleed better than 1.
I've shot Barnes for quite some time, I really started pushing them when I started running a wild game processing shop, Barnes are king for eating right up to the bullet hole and makes for some easy work on the cutting table usually. Everyone I hunted with HAD to shoot Barnes or they had to have someone else cut their game, HUGE Barnes fan!!! Just for numbers sake I've cut over 2000 elk, I don't cut professionally any more and still cut 50 or so.
I had the opportunity to help with hunting a herd of elk that comes down on open fields, help with a LOT of elk and filled quite a number of my tags and I used the opportunity to test shot placement and really evaluate killing elk. Killing them in the mountains things happen fast and often times you loose sight of them and just don't get to see the whole effect, I've had shots that I knew I was going up to pick up elk but low and behold nothing, tracked them for miles and nada, out in an open field you see absolutely everything!!!
Typically I shot a 300 WBY with 168 TSX running hard, killed a good number of animals with it, and a few other guys had similar set ups. We saw elk just grab dirt but we also saw some walk just out of range and stand their wobbling for half hour or better with a center lung hit, when we started shoulder shooting we got a number of elk that just DRT, legs coming up and touching their belly and bouncing of the ground getting dropped hard and we had two of them recover after a while so we punched their ticket again. I found that we could get Barnes or any overly hard bullet for that mater fail to penetrate an elk shoulder especially if quartering they'd deflect out the front of the shoulder and break it but not do any vital damage. This is a wound I see healed over in elk I cut several times a year, and on the ranch the #1 wound we see on elk coming on is a shoulder shot that failed to penetrate. We tested Accubonds and saw some similar stuff but got better wound channels with shots behind the shoulder. I finally just went to a cup and core which let me shoot as heavy a bullet as possible that would open well and it stopped deflections cold, never could get one to deflect. For me killing elk clean and killing every elk I put bullet on is ALL about the bullet, I personally don't know anyone still shooting Barnes anymore for elk. Deer and antelope I still shoot them in somethings but no more on elk, though I still have to shoot a couple elk with the 285 LRX from a 338 RUM or Lapua cause I think I could like them.
I had the opportunity to help with hunting a herd of elk that comes down on open fields, help with a LOT of elk and filled quite a number of my tags and I used the opportunity to test shot placement and really evaluate killing elk. Killing them in the mountains things happen fast and often times you loose sight of them and just don't get to see the whole effect, I've had shots that I knew I was going up to pick up elk but low and behold nothing, tracked them for miles and nada, out in an open field you see absolutely everything!!!
Typically I shot a 300 WBY with 168 TSX running hard, killed a good number of animals with it, and a few other guys had similar set ups. We saw elk just grab dirt but we also saw some walk just out of range and stand their wobbling for half hour or better with a center lung hit, when we started shoulder shooting we got a number of elk that just DRT, legs coming up and touching their belly and bouncing of the ground getting dropped hard and we had two of them recover after a while so we punched their ticket again. I found that we could get Barnes or any overly hard bullet for that mater fail to penetrate an elk shoulder especially if quartering they'd deflect out the front of the shoulder and break it but not do any vital damage. This is a wound I see healed over in elk I cut several times a year, and on the ranch the #1 wound we see on elk coming on is a shoulder shot that failed to penetrate. We tested Accubonds and saw some similar stuff but got better wound channels with shots behind the shoulder. I finally just went to a cup and core which let me shoot as heavy a bullet as possible that would open well and it stopped deflections cold, never could get one to deflect. For me killing elk clean and killing every elk I put bullet on is ALL about the bullet, I personally don't know anyone still shooting Barnes anymore for elk. Deer and antelope I still shoot them in somethings but no more on elk, though I still have to shoot a couple elk with the 285 LRX from a 338 RUM or Lapua cause I think I could like them.
wboggs
Gold $$ Contributor
I wonder if the deflection is caused by the spritzer shape of the bullet. Many African PHs feel a flat or round nose bullet penetrates straighter. Also, big heavy bullets are going slower. Twist also affects penetration with a faster twist giving more. Years ago we did some experiments that showed a .458 500gr. around 2400fps in a 1-12 twist was ideal. Same for a similar set up with the .416 400gr. I can see where a long bullet would deflect more.
Thanks for sharing your experience.
Bill
Thanks for sharing your experience.
Bill
My working theory with the deflection is that the bullet is so hard yet opens that you get some substantial frontal area, so you need enough velocity to blow the petals reducing the frontal area and allowing penetration to keep going or you need to have substantial weight behind it in the shank, without either the back of the bullet can not push forward so it takes the path of least resistance and a deflection. I've seen it also with Accubonds where they open very big but don't mash the mushroom tight and they stop cold leaving a shattered shoulder but no vital damage, this was 180 Accubonds, I have not see a 200gr stop though.
When your cutting elk you can tell a shot that has deflection or cold stop happens on because the bone does not fragment but crumbles, it very odd but it seems to be accompanied by a solid hit with a lot of energy dumping, on elk shoulders that have healed over when you run the band saw through the solid mass of bone and frag that has grown together you see the same crumbled pattern not the sharp fractured bone.
I've gone back to cup and core because I can get the weight up which helps and they will loose frontal areas easier so it's a win, win for getting though an elk shoulder, I also think the cup and core as they penetrate the bone they mushroom displacing out and taking bone with it fractures the bone better as apposed to the copper which is big a big flat solid, kinda like hitting something with a narrow face hammer vs a broad face hammer.
I used to shoot a bolt action 45-70 that I could load up to a stupid level with 520gr solids, at the time I was all into chasing elk in dark timber which it was awesome for but I detached my retina so my light weight cannons went away!!
When your cutting elk you can tell a shot that has deflection or cold stop happens on because the bone does not fragment but crumbles, it very odd but it seems to be accompanied by a solid hit with a lot of energy dumping, on elk shoulders that have healed over when you run the band saw through the solid mass of bone and frag that has grown together you see the same crumbled pattern not the sharp fractured bone.
I've gone back to cup and core because I can get the weight up which helps and they will loose frontal areas easier so it's a win, win for getting though an elk shoulder, I also think the cup and core as they penetrate the bone they mushroom displacing out and taking bone with it fractures the bone better as apposed to the copper which is big a big flat solid, kinda like hitting something with a narrow face hammer vs a broad face hammer.
I used to shoot a bolt action 45-70 that I could load up to a stupid level with 520gr solids, at the time I was all into chasing elk in dark timber which it was awesome for but I detached my retina so my light weight cannons went away!!
FeMan
Gold $$ Contributor
When it comes to penetration, basic physics says that retained weight and velocity are the contributors to penetration and are spread over the mushroomed frontal area. So all things being equal (frontal area, velocity, medium, etc.) the bullet with the highest retained weight penetrates the most. Thats why solids penetrate the best. Except for solids, it is tough to beat Barnes weight retention. Experiences vary though. No two shots on game though are ever the same.
I really don't like to get in these bullet threads because it almost always ends up in a spitting contest . bigngreen and I have talked about the barnes bullets in past threads on another forum . I also had the bullet deflection problem on a whitetail . I've only used 160 gr TSX bullets in my 7mm rem mag at 3100fps . I was never impressed with the damage I saw . usually the meat was edible right up to the bullet hole , little to no blood shot meat . never had a one shot kill ,and tracked just about every animal i shot. I have much better results with a lead core bullet . I did recover one bullet with the petals blown off .after seeing it I quit using them .
I shot some deer with a few TSX a little while back. I always had an exit & never noticed any "deflection" but they did not seem to kill as fast a lead bullets. Standard cup & core seems to leave a much larger wound channel/damage & likely the reason I have noticed deer expireing quicker with.
I also tried some 120's at @ 7Rem Mag velocities & found torn pedals in the carcus as well. Had more deer run with that bulelt than all others I tried in that chambering.
Barnes work but they have pros & cons just like other options. Their certainly not the holy grail some think they are. I'll let some experienced elk hunters desribe what it takes for elk; but deer are not that tough to kill & about any bullet will work.
I also tried some 120's at @ 7Rem Mag velocities & found torn pedals in the carcus as well. Had more deer run with that bulelt than all others I tried in that chambering.
Barnes work but they have pros & cons just like other options. Their certainly not the holy grail some think they are. I'll let some experienced elk hunters desribe what it takes for elk; but deer are not that tough to kill & about any bullet will work.
wboggs
Gold $$ Contributor
Agree with jimbries about this type subject matter. No conditions are similar I once shot a doe at 25yds through both lungs with a .270WBY using a 130gr Nosler Partition at about 3300fps. She continued to run for another 75yds or so and didn't even appear to be hit. So, is the Nosler ineffective? I don't think so.
Most hunters do not have controlled conditions for fair comparisons. Bigngreen does have the experience and his advice is worthy of consideration.
Bill
Most hunters do not have controlled conditions for fair comparisons. Bigngreen does have the experience and his advice is worthy of consideration.
Bill
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