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Ball Powder 243 and 108s

Is the 4000MR a regular ball powder? Why do ball powders get such a bad rap as being "temperature sensitive"?

I think there should be a standardized temperature co factor that should have to be disclosed on every powder that clearly tells how temperature sensitive it is... I cannot image ball powders can be that temperature sensitive as most of the applications for ball powder are military in nature.


Power Pro(TM) 4000-MR is not a traditional spherical powder or rolled spherical, it is what SMP calls a "hybrid" propellant. It is produced in the ball powder process, but with new process technology which results in perforated cylinders similar to short extruded stick powders.

There is no industry standard for measuring/characterizing the temp stability of propellants, and I don't know how you could develop one. The problem is the response of the materials can change dramatically from one application to the next, so a propellant that you think is well behaved in one application may take off at hot or drop like a rock at cold in others. We see that all the time.
Regarding your military reference, I think the military is pretty tolerant of ballistic change with temperature in the main, and their specifications reflect that.
Shoot well,
Paul
 
On the original query, I've been watching this thread with bated breath (I exaggerate a little here! :)) as to whether any precision shooter would come up with a ball type application that really works in the more demanding disciplines. So far, silence!

After 40 or so years in the handloading game, I share most match shooters' prejudices in favour of extruded types for very high-precision applications, and against the use of the spherical form. IME, 'ball' types don't provide the necessary degree of consistency ..... but I keep hoping to be proven wrong on this issue.

So far as I can see, ball types are rightly popular with people loading hunting ammunition, and also for match competitors who load and shoot significant quantities of ammunition that don't have to provide ultimate precision on each and every outing, for example XTC, and who use Dillon or other progressive presses to crank the stuff out. The great plus being of course relatively consistent metering in volumetric throwers. (Now that I do most things on an RCBS ChargeMaster, ironically I find many ball powders such as Ramshot's products flow too easily and I end up with tiny balls rolling around the bench and floor - I've retained my old Hornady Match powder measure partly as a simpler technology back-up less likely to break down, partly to use whenever I load ball grades.)

Of the older spherical grades, I always had a bit of a soft spot for Hodgdon H414 (aka Winchester 760) as a very sound performer in its burn speed bracket, but it is one of those grades that fail to comply with the EU's REACH environmental regulations so cannot be imported into the UK now.
 
I want to develop Pdog ammo that can be thrown without weighing.

My boy Terry will be testing Magpro and R23 (not a ball but one that has very little press) this week. I will post results.
 
There is no industry standard for measuring/characterizing the temp stability of propellants, and I don't know how you could develop one. The problem is the response of the materials can change dramatically from one application to the next, so a propellant that you think is well behaved in one application may take off at hot or drop like a rock at cold in others.

I am going to have to respectfully disagree here. I never said to test the application, I said test the temperature change verses pressure. Which you could totally do with a simple test, if everyone used the same test... Then this whole velocity and pressure verses temp per degree F/c could be given a number.

And I said there should be a STANDARD, that is whole point there is isn't one, its all hearsay and marketing slogans.
 
Why do ball powders get such a bad rap as being "temperature sensitive"?

When I wrote a review of the then newly reintroduced Ramshot rifle powders into the UK some years ago, I spent a lot of time trying to get an answer to this question online ......... and failed pretty comprehensively. Here are a couple of pieces from Western Powders / Accurate on this issue from the company's website at different times.

First, current (from the site's FAQ section):


7. What is the real story behind temperature stability?


Most of our powders are not insensitive, and will show some effect at hot and cold temperatures.

However, we test at -40F and +125F and the deviation in most cases are ca 3% to 5% at these extreme levels. Therefore most shooters do not notice much difference under normal practical hunting conditions.

More elaboration on the subject:

Complete temperature stability can only be achieved with tubular extruded powders designs, either with double base (NG) and/or with other coating technologies.

Because the ballistic performance at extreme temperature is completely dependant on the specific combination, it is very difficult to quantify and qualify.

Our standard powders perform very well at extreme temperatures, and usually pass the strict military requirements by a large margin.

This is a subject that often fraught with misconceptions and inaccuracies.

The term is used loosely by manufacturers without qualifying the subject, and is obviously exploited for marketing purposes and perceptions.

The facts are:

  • Although powders can be improved, it’s really only possible with advanced coating procedures and additives which increase the cost.
  • A particular powder can be improved re temperature stability for certain combinations, within a certain envelope which is specific to the following three main parameters/aspects
    • The caliber.
    • The weight of the projectile/bullet.
    • The performance level.
If any of these parameters/aspects go beyond or outside the intended ratio/s, the results will change and the performance will sometimes be different.

It is also very important that when a comparison is made, that all conditions re weapon i.e. components primer, case, bullet and the velocity are equal, and preferably done at the same time on the same day."


Second from the Accurate powders website maybe 10 years ago:

".................. Here’s what Keith Anderson of Western Powders’ ballistics lab said in a forum post last year:


“All of the powders sold under the Ramshot or Accurate brands meet or exceed the military specification [presumably NATO?, author] for hot and cold stability. As with anything, some powders are better than others. Single base powders such as Varget can be made to be more temperature stable than double based powders such as Accurate 2520 although there are trade offs to anything. While the nitroglycerin in a double based powder makes it less temperature stable it is the component that makes double based powders cleaner burning and allows them to attain higher velocities and their single based cousins.



“In both the single base and double base lines of powders some powders have better temperature stability than others, Ramshot ‘TAC’ is one of the most temperature stable double based powders available. It is this very reason that so much of it is being used for military applications in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Even under extreme temperatures Ramshot ‘TAC’ will vary less than half what the military will allow.”


IMHO, there is a large element of Give a dog a bad name .......... on this issue. A lot of double-based and ball powders' alleged issues probably were true at one time, but technology has moved on a long way in 100 plus years. (The original British Cordite propellant used in late 19th / early 20th century 0.303 ball cartridges had a make-up of 57% nitroglycerin, 38% nitrocellulose, 5% mineral jelly - it wore barrels out in around 1,000 rounds; by the time of the 303 Mk VII ball cartridge's introduction in 1910 the nitroglycerin and nitrocellulose proportions were pretty well reversed and barrel life improved accordingly.)

What you do find on the issue online is a huge amount of opinion and anecdote, but few facts from professionals. Yes, sure some individual products no doubt correctly have reputations - good or bad - which are deserved. H4350 is undoubtedly very temperature stable even by the standards of other ADI / Hodgdon 'Extreme' extruded grades, but some older single-based tubular extruded types are reckoned to be very temperature affected and I'd imagine many modern 'ball' grades are considerably less so. What cannot be done - but regularly is on forums - is to say type A is invariably good and type B is invariably bad.
 
First test with Magpro and Berger 105 bt.

That target on the left is all the shots from the ladder at 100 yards. Ummm .. Yah. received_653314035089347.jpeg received_576984549473717.jpeg
 
When I wrote a review of the then newly reintroduced Ramshot rifle powders into the UK some years ago, I spent a lot of time trying to get an answer to this question online ......... and failed pretty comprehensively. Here are a couple of pieces from Western Powders / Accurate on this issue from the company's website at different times.

First, current (from the site's FAQ section):


7. What is the real story behind temperature stability?


Most of our powders are not insensitive, and will show some effect at hot and cold temperatures.

However, we test at -40F and +125F and the deviation in most cases are ca 3% to 5% at these extreme levels. Therefore most shooters do not notice much difference under normal practical hunting conditions.

More elaboration on the subject:

Complete temperature stability can only be achieved with tubular extruded powders designs, either with double base (NG) and/or with other coating technologies.

Because the ballistic performance at extreme temperature is completely dependant on the specific combination, it is very difficult to quantify and qualify.

Our standard powders perform very well at extreme temperatures, and usually pass the strict military requirements by a large margin.

This is a subject that often fraught with misconceptions and inaccuracies.

The term is used loosely by manufacturers without qualifying the subject, and is obviously exploited for marketing purposes and perceptions.

The facts are:

  • Although powders can be improved, it’s really only possible with advanced coating procedures and additives which increase the cost.
  • A particular powder can be improved re temperature stability for certain combinations, within a certain envelope which is specific to the following three main parameters/aspects
    • The caliber.
    • The weight of the projectile/bullet.
    • The performance level.
If any of these parameters/aspects go beyond or outside the intended ratio/s, the results will change and the performance will sometimes be different.

It is also very important that when a comparison is made, that all conditions re weapon i.e. components primer, case, bullet and the velocity are equal, and preferably done at the same time on the same day."


Second from the Accurate powders website maybe 10 years ago:

".................. Here’s what Keith Anderson of Western Powders’ ballistics lab said in a forum post last year:


“All of the powders sold under the Ramshot or Accurate brands meet or exceed the military specification [presumably NATO?, author] for hot and cold stability. As with anything, some powders are better than others. Single base powders such as Varget can be made to be more temperature stable than double based powders such as Accurate 2520 although there are trade offs to anything. While the nitroglycerin in a double based powder makes it less temperature stable it is the component that makes double based powders cleaner burning and allows them to attain higher velocities and their single based cousins.



“In both the single base and double base lines of powders some powders have better temperature stability than others, Ramshot ‘TAC’ is one of the most temperature stable double based powders available. It is this very reason that so much of it is being used for military applications in both Iraq and Afghanistan. Even under extreme temperatures Ramshot ‘TAC’ will vary less than half what the military will allow.”


IMHO, there is a large element of Give a dog a bad name .......... on this issue. A lot of double-based and ball powders' alleged issues probably were true at one time, but technology has moved on a long way in 100 plus years. (The original British Cordite propellant used in late 19th / early 20th century 0.303 ball cartridges had a make-up of 57% nitroglycerin, 38% nitrocellulose, 5% mineral jelly - it wore barrels out in around 1,000 rounds; by the time of the 303 Mk VII ball cartridge's introduction in 1910 the nitroglycerin and nitrocellulose proportions were pretty well reversed and barrel life improved accordingly.)

What you do find on the issue online is a huge amount of opinion and anecdote, but few facts from professionals. Yes, sure some individual products no doubt correctly have reputations - good or bad - which are deserved. H4350 is undoubtedly very temperature stable even by the standards of other ADI / Hodgdon 'Extreme' extruded grades, but some older single-based tubular extruded types are reckoned to be very temperature affected and I'd imagine many modern 'ball' grades are considerably less so. What cannot be done - but regularly is on forums - is to say type A is invariably good and type B is invariably bad.
Bravo! Well said.
 
I use Ramshot Magnum in my 6mm Comp Match. It's perfect!!!!! Single digit SD's and I can load on a Dillon using the factory Dillon powder measure.
I use it for 95gr SMK and 115gr Dtac's in my 6mm Comp Match.

I'm sure it would work for some of the heavier bullets in .243win as well.

Regards,
Ross
 
Thank you for sharing this data. These results mirror the accuracy results I had achieved in my 25-06, using MagPro with 117 SST'S. Like you, I also found best results higher in the load range near maximum.
 
Thank you for sharing this data. These results mirror the accuracy results I had achieved in my 25-06, using MagPro with 117 SST'S. Like you, I also found best results higher in the load range near maximum.

I think at the top of the loads there was forming a flat spot 49.1 might have been the wind. 49.3 looks good and I would have liked to have seen 49.5 with the magnum primer as the the SDs greatly improved with the magnum primer over the standard primer. With the CCI 200 at max the velocities were going crazy.

I may see if I can get him to shoot 49.1, 49.3, and 49.5 again. Just for grins. It may be difficult because he is knee deep in that R23 load.

We are going to test AA2700 next :)
 

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