Bad size die.

[dantiff2]

I have a full length die for a 30-06 from RCBS that does not bump the shoulder at all. I picked another one up from Redding that does a great job with some room to spare.
I could just face some material off the bottom of the die or shell holder in order for it to be correct. But I want it to be a shoulder bump neck die only. How much material should be removed from the die body? I'm thinking there should be some support below the shoulder body junction or the case would bulge, am I right?

Dan

Edited post because wording was misleading. I know how to "fix" the original dies problem but want to MODIFY it instead.

 

[bigedp51]

dantiff2

Yesterday a Forster .243 Go gauge arrived and since I'm retired with nothing to do and all day to do it I played at my reloading bench.

My new Stevens 200 .243 has the headspace set at 1.631 and a Go gauge is 1.630. This is my third .243 and because the headspace is "tighter" than the other two Remingtons I had it is a "little" diffrent.

Above on the left is a 1973 dated RCBS Full length die and on the right is a new Redding .243 full length die.

For "MY" new Stevens .200 243 the RCBS FL die will only size the case into the "gray area" of 1.630 and the cases sized in this die rub the bolt face ever so slightly. The new Redding die will push the shoulder back to 1.627 or .003 more than the RCBS die and more than needed.

All you need to do is lap a shell holder until your fired case fits "your" rifle and then remove .002 more from the top of the shell holder to ensure chambering. The removal of and the amount removed is up to you and how the rifle will be used. If your hunting a Tyrannosaurus Rex and bigger game then a little more of the top of the shell holder wont hurt anything. :

Get a piece of glass the size of a sheet of wet and dry sand paper and some fine grain 600 grit and finer sand paper. Wet the glass to hold the sand paper in place and wet the sand paper and lap the shell holder in a figure 8 pattern, rotating the shell holder frequently in your grip.
(we used a similar method for overhauling and lapping aircraft hydraulic components at the overhaul depot I retired from, this methods costs "MUCH" less.)

Below, shell holder .003 shorter than normal to "push" the case further into the resizing die.
(hide this shell holder from yourself so you don't use it when you "don't" need it) :

 

[jonbearman]

Very simple very easy. It is amazing how simple this stuff is if you understand it.You just taught an old dog a new trick.Thank you. I have a triplea surface plate and it works great for light lapping and I have a real lapping plate for heavy lapping.Now I too can fix my problem , only to admit,I hadnt thought of this fix.The older you get the harder it is to see the straight forward approach.Nice pics,and nice presentation. You should do a serie's of these type's of repair's that can be done at home. Thanks again Jon

 

[bigedp51]

Very simple very easy. It is amazing how simple this stuff is if you understand it.You just taught an old dog a new trick.Thank you. I have a triplea surface plate and it works great for light lapping and I have a real lapping plate for heavy lapping.Now I too can fix my problem , only to admit,I hadnt thought of this fix.The older you get the harder it is to see the straight forward approach.Nice pics,and nice presentation. You should do a serie's of these type's of repair's that can be done at home. Thanks again Jon

You don't understand, an old dog taught me tricks when I was young and I'm just passing it on.

Besides the opposite of "plus" is :minus" or lapping the shell holder and making it shorter. (see the "plus" below)

 

[bigedp51]

A little story about manufacturing firearms and tolerances.

In 1909 the American company of Pratt and Whitney was selected to set up an Enfield rifle manufacturing plant in Lithgow Australia. This plant was set up with the most modern manufacturing equipment Pratt & Whitney could produce.

This is a true story called the Enfield Inch, Pratt & Whitneys problem started when they tried converting British blue print measurements into modern standards. A British "inch" was not standardised and an Enfield "inch" was equal to so many kernels of corn, so many grains of barley etc.

Needless to say the Australians say they have the best made Enfield rifles in the world.
(Once the company of Pratt & Whittney finally figured out how long a British inch was) ;D

 

[RonAKA]

I'm thinking there should be some support below the shoulder body junction or the case would bulge, am I right?

I have a Forster Bump/Bushing die. It does not size the body of the cartridge. It just pushes the shoulder back. Bulging does not seem to be a problem.

However if you shorten your FL die, or your shell holder, then the case should get support or likely be sized down once you get to bumping the shoulder.

The other option would be to get your money back from RCBS, now that you have another die that works.

 

[dantiff2]

Thank you all for the responses. I understand how head space and dies work but my question is on making a shoulder bump die that also sizes the neck, from the full length die I already have.

Would it be more practical to shorten the die? (remove the entire body portion) Or ream out the body taper of the die a little larger?

 

[RonAKA]

So you want to make a neck sizing and shoulder bump only die from a FL die? If so, you would have to shorten the die (or the shell holder), and open up the body part of the die. Sizing dies are hardened, so I'm not sure that is possible with a reamer.

 

[dantiff2]

I have access to a Rockwell hardness tester ;D

I would rather just whack the die in half and go from there, but something tells me that you need to support the body of the case when you bump the shoulder,To prevent the case from going outward. (buckle)
I think the Forester bump dies are held to a very tight tolerance. So close to provide support but not size. I could be wrong! Happens all the time

Dan

 

[RonAKA]

All I can tell you is that fired cases will easily drop into the Forster Bump die, and go solid against the shoulder. They will drop back out on their own. I use the die to measure the case length to the shoulder. In a FL die, you get a gradual tightening and sticky fit. I guess what I have never tried is to pull the case out by hand after the shoulder is bumped. That would tell me if it has bulged out to contact the body.

Sounds a bit crude, but could you use a Lee case trimmer holder to hold a fired case, coat the body with grinding compound, and feed it into the die to hone out the diameter? The grinding compound should embed in the softer brass and cut the steel - eventually?

Edit- Probably would make more sense to start with a fully sized piece of brass, and then work up to a fired and not resized case.

 

[RonAKA]

I checked the fit today in my Forster Bushing/Bump die, with the bushing removed. Put in a brand new case, a fired unsized case, and a fired case that had the neck sized two thirds, and the shoulder bumped. The all drop straight into the die and stop with a solid clunk. Tip the die over and they fall out. So, it seems at least in my case, the bump does not cause a significant bulge.

 

[dantiff2]

Your results are exactly what I was looking for. Thank you for taking the time to investigate. Good thinking on the Lee case holder! I even have one for the .473 case head... Just wonder if the compound would work on the hardened surface?

Dan

 

[dantiff2]

Sandpaper in my die?

I think you missed the point about wanting to modify the FL die...

Dan

 

[jo191145]

Maybe I'm missing something here. Would'nt be the first time.

If you hone the bottom off a FL die or top of a shellholder what you will have is a FL die that bumps the shoulder and sizes the body. Or in other words a FL die, period......

If you want a shoulder bump only die you need to start with a neck sizing die.
Done quite a few of them. They work well.

Does'nt seem worth the effort to try and ream out a FL die to make a shoulder bumper.

 

[RonAKA]

Just wonder if the compound would work on the hardened surface?

I think yes, it will cut if you use a good abrasive grinding compound. However, I would worry about how fast. It could turn out to be a long process. But, if you have the Lee drill adapter, and use a drill to spin the case, perhaps it will go faster than I think.

Forster offer a service to hone their neck and FL die necks to a custom size for about $10. So it must be possible.

 

[dantiff2]

Your results are exactly what I was looking for. Thank you for taking the time to investigate. Good thinking on the Lee case holder! I even have one for the .473 case head... Just wonder if the compound would work on the hardened surface?

Sounded to me like you were planning on modifying the shell holder like a lot of people do. But if you're gonna' screw up a die use whatever you deem appropriate.

Dave, I now have two FL dies. No reason to have two laying around. Thought I could tinker with one and make it a shoulder bump neck die ;D