Bad Barrel? What is going on?

[joesr]

Forgive me for the length of this post. I’m looking for some idea as to what is going on with this barrel. So please bear with me.

This barrel has been strange since the beginning.

Initially my normal loads did not work. Having switched from a straight 4 grove to a 5 grove with slanted lands I assumed the issue was with the rifling and that I had to start over with my loads.

My normal load is 49.0 gr of H1000 +.05 at times. This load give a velocity of around 3050 to 3100 from the 115.

I shoot all uncoated bullets.

I started playing with H4831SC and N160 as the H1000 was only giving me 2850 to 2900 and I know the cartridge does more.

With H4831SC and N160 I initially had some loads that looked like they shot good and I was getting incredible velocities. The velocities were well in the 3150 to 3250 range. This was all with 0 to 200 rounds through the barrel.

Then when I went to fine tune the loads, everything went wrong. I was blowing primers and as I backed down the powder charges my velocities were too low to be acceptable. By this time I had about 400 rounds through the barrel.

I am completely perplexed as to why and how the new barrel shot these loads and then would not function with the same load a day later.

There is no problem with my powder scale nor any other loading of the cartridges. I looked for these issues, checked the scale against another scale, checked my dies and everything is good.

At about 500 rounds I went back to 49 gr of H1000 and the groups were great and the velocity was 3025. So I thought I was good.

Then this past weekend I shot two matches. The first match was a 50 shot match and the barrel seemed to perform, but it was only at 200 yards. Sunday I shot an 80 shot match and all was going good. The final 20 shots were slow fire prone at 500 yards. I was having some elevation issues, but all no pressure issues through 16 shots.

Then on the 17th shot the gun all but blew up! Smoke in my face, the bolt was very hard to open, the primer was not recognizable. The case is separated 95% and there is a piece that flowed into the ejector that extends out of the back of the case by almost 1/8”.

I have no idea how this much pressure could have created.

I stopped shooting and I have removed the barrel.

I’m looking for some support to my theory or some new ideas as to what is wrong.

First, we can eliminate issues with an over charge. The case only holds about 50.5 gr of H1000 and I was shooting 49.3. Even at 50.5 there would not have been enough pressure to do this to the case.

Second, we can eliminate neck issues,the bullet being stuck in neck of the bullet). There is no carbon ring in the barrel. All brass had been trimmed and debured prior to loading.

Third, every charge was weighed and was 49.2 to 49.4.



This barrel fouls badly, both with powder residue and with copper. It takes hours to clean it and JB does not remove the copper. IOSSO does with the help of Hoppe’s #9. This is not my normal cleaning routine, but for this barrel it was necessary every time.

When I bore-coped the barrel initially there was “scratches”, probably tooling marks down the length of the barrel. Basically, groves in the groves of the barrel. I worked the barrel hard with JB and also shot some of Tubb’s final finish bullets through it to try to remove these marks.

Also, and I’m not sure what this is worth, when I use my Stoney Point OAL tool and pushed the bullet against the rifling,with my thumb only). I had to beat the bullets out of the barrel and when they finally came loose they flew across the room and the bullet was damaged.

I’m thinking that the fouling cause the extreme pressure. And that the barrel’s steel is either too soft or too rough.

Is this possible, is this plausible? Has anyone else ever experienced something similar.

The pictures are of the ruptured case and the back of the rest of the fired cased from the string.

Thanks for any input,

Joe

 

[StephenPerry]

Joe
Is this a 6x284 and what barrel. First thing I would pitch all the brass you have shot in that barrel and start with new. Next you need to fire form all your brass twice with some stiff loads and heavy bullets. Next if you don't have such a die buy a FL die that will move the brass back a couple thou after each firing, need to measure. Seems now your die is pushing neck back way too much and the several firings allowing the case to expand too much on each firing. Doubt if the problem is with your barrel or action more like with your loading. I have had case separations from adjusting my FL die to push the shoulder back too far. I pitched the brass too and started with new.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

 

[joesr]

Joe
Is this a 6x284 and what barrel. First thing I would pitch all the brass you have shot in that barrel and start with new. Next you need to fire form all your brass twice with some stiff loads and heavy bullets. Next if you don't have such a die buy a FL die that will move the brass back a couple thou after each firing, need to measure. Seems now your die is pushing neck back way too much and the several firings allowing the case to expand too much on each firing. Doubt if the problem is with your barrel or action more like with your loading. I have had case separations from adjusting my FL die to push the shoulder back too far. I pitched the brass too and started with new.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

Stephen,

Thanks for your thoughts.

This rifle is chambered in the 6CM which is basically a 243 with a 31 degree shoulder.

I do use a FL die and push the should back 1 to 2 thou. I measure it often, and for this match I checked it twice.

The brass is not stretched and this is not a simple case separation. I've had case separations and I understand what causes them.

The pressure on this round had to be over 80,000 lb as not only did the case separate, but the brass flowed into the ejector. The case is badly deformed.

The brass, the powder charge and everything else was very carefully put together.

The issue is not with my reloading, nor the brass.

There is something else.

If I had read this thread, I too would have believed there is a reloading issue. Trust me, I believed that first, with this barrel. The more quirky this barrel got the more attention I paid to all of my reloading.

The brass was not thin and when you look at the case there is the separation and then, behind that, there is a distinct line where the chamber ended. The brass flowed around the end of the chamber and also flowed into the ejector.

This is not a simple case of worn-out brass or bad had loading.

Joe Hendricks

 

[jb1000br]

Carbon fouling in the bore. Since you have now JB'd, the velocity should return to normal if that was the cause.

any component lot changes?

JB

 

[StephenPerry]

Joe
One thing I like to do to catch the carbon fouling early is to run alcohol patches through the barrel after every group. Rubbing alcohol will take most any carbon and loose jacket material before it can take a set. Do it while the barrel is hot. This is not taking the place of normal cleaning.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

 

[243Mendoza]

Joe,
Have you slugged the bore to gets lands/grooves dimensions?

 

[Tommie]

I'm just grasping for straws here:

Sounds like the throat area is getting gooey. Is it possible that those slow powders aren't getting a good clean burn? I like slow powders as much as anyone, but it's possible that with a case capacity in the .243 vicinity you might be running a little too slow. I would guess,with a capitol "G") that H4350 would be more suited to your bore capacity. Maybe somewhat quicker - like H414 range or even H380.

FWIW

Tom

 

[joesr]

Lots of questions....one at a time

Lynn...this was not rapid fire. Probably 35 to 45 seconds between rounds.

JB...I've had to clean the barrel every time with JB or IOSSO to get the fouling out. I have a bore scope and I've used it on this barrel. Everytime out it is clean down to the metal.

Sephen...my game is different. It requires 88 or 110 shots before cleaning is possible.

Steve,

I have not sluged the barrel and there are no plans to slug the barrel. If the manufacturer ever gets back to me I'd hope they check that.

Tom,

Gooey throat.. because of slow buring powders???? Not possible. H4350 would burn out this barrel quicker than you can scratch your ***. All of my other barrels have had no issues with the slow burning powders and infact the barrel currently on my gun has over 3400 rounds though it and with H1000 I shot some groups under 1/2" today.

Joe

 

[Tommie]

Joe, just trying to come up with some ideas. I hope no offense was taken. Sometimes bizarre problems require equally bizarre solutions. Let me try to better explain my "gooey throat" theory:

If the bore,for some unknown reason) happened to be slightly undersize you certainly could experience higher pressure signs. I don't blame ya for not wanting to do it, but slugging the bore would answer the question definitively. What makes me curious about the possibility of an undersize bore is your description of having to hammer out bullets when using your Stoney Point gauge. The other potential co-culprit is the rough bore you described in your earlier post.

So now here's the "if" statement...

If the bore is undersize and if the bore is rough and if the powder isn't burning cleanly, we might have pressures building that wouldn't be present in a "perfect" barrel.

I'm sure you're right about 4350 roasting the bore. But in this case I'm talking about powder residue and other crud piling up inside the bore/throat.

Still friends?

Tom

 

[StephenPerry]

Joe
After reading all the comments I suggest you dump the barrel. Buy a Krieger and be happy.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

 

[joesr]

Joe, just trying to come up with some ideas. I hope no offense was taken. Sometimes bizarre problems require equally bizarre solutions. Let me try to better explain my "gooey throat" theory:

If the bore,for some unknown reason) happened to be slightly undersize you certainly could experience higher pressure signs. I don't blame ya for not wanting to do it, but slugging the bore would answer the question definitively. What makes me curious about the possibility of an undersize bore is your description of having to hammer out bullets when using your Stoney Point gauge. The other potential co-culprit is the rough bore you described in your earlier post.

So now here's the "if" statement...

If the bore is undersize and if the bore is rough and if the powder isn't burning cleanly, we might have pressures building that wouldn't be present in a "perfect" barrel.

I'm sure you're right about 4350 roasting the bore. But in this case I'm talking about powder residue and other crud piling up inside the bore/throat.

Still friends?

Tom

Tom,

I wasn't pissed. You may be correct. It is not that I don't want to slug the bore, I don't know how and I don't think my smith does that. I'll have to check.

The perplexing issue is how the pressure goes up so much between shots.

I've been trying to get the barrel manufacturer to talk to me about this, but as of yet they have not responded to emails nor voice mails.

I've removed the barrel and it will not be shot again. I'm back to my old Kreiger and I should have a new Kreiger on the gun in a week or two.

However, this old Kreiger shoots so well it will be hard to take it off the gun. But it does have 3400 rounds through it and I'm waiting for the ceiling to drop. Probably, this weekend at the Regional I'm shooting.

Take care,

Joe

 

[AckleymanII]

Joe, you sure know what you are doing in loading and cleaning, no doubt.

I recently ran into a problem that may be similar to yours. I was helping a friend load for a rifle that he had been shooting for years. I clean his guns for him and had this particular barrel down to bare metal. I told him that the barrel was starting to get worn and he should think about replacing it in the next year.

We load at the range. He is shooting a custom 6.5x55. He went from a 129g Bullet to a 160g bullet. All of a sudden the bolt got hard to open and on the next shot, the bold seized up with smoke billowing out of the action. I removed the barrel to get the stuck case out.

Upon inspection, I found that the barrel had a tight spot of copper build up in the barrel which caused the pressure spike.
I don't know if your barrel could be getting worn,maybe rough to begin with) and you are starting to see pressure spikes from copper build up.

We are grasping for straws here, and this particular issue with your barrel is odd to say the least. Every barrel is an individual, and some barrels have inclusions in the steel that make for hard and soft spots.

If you can not identify the issue with the barrel, I would get rid of it...trying to fix a bad barrel is like trying to fix a Hell Bent Whore...you simply can't fix them...they just keep stealing your peace of mind!

 

[joesr]

I received some information from the barrel manufacturer that is very interesting....

He had the exact same problem with the 6CM in the same barrel.

Here is his email to me:

"Joe,Sorry to have been so late in getting to you but I have been buried with work. I know you know what that is like.

Had the very same problems you are experiencing. What I did was change over to H 4350 powder. The reason behind this is that the bullet was going out the barrel so easy that all of the H1000 would not burn. And to conform that I talked to a fello in kansas City who has experienced the same difficulties with H1000. I would reccommned starting out with 43.5 gr. of H4350 and work up from there.

When talking to Bob ****** about his 22 cal barrel in 6 twist, he had to go to a faster powder too. Because the barrel is giving him 300 ft per second faster than any loading data out there currently available and I did a test by making up a 243 barrel and took H1000 just be sure I hadn't done something unusual somewhere down the line. Went out and shot it and it behaved exactly like the CM did with H1000. The fellow on the spotting scope behind me said it was the flattest thing he had ever seen in a 243. Now comes the cool part......T.he CM,w 4350) is 4.5 to 5 minutes flatter than the 243 with H1000. The bullet is going out the barrel so easily that the H1000 will not totally burn and then soot is left behind in the barrel which starts to take the copper off the bullet and then you have lamination and that starts to compound the problem. TM bore cleaner will take out ccopper and carbon Fouling. It is the best you have evr found and it doesn't damage the barrel. I believe the CM has an exceelent chance of taking over for the 6.5X284 and can be used as an over the course cartridge.
Other barrel makers use 4 groove barrels and they have wider lands so more than likely had more back pressure to make the powder consume itself. "


This is exactly what I'm experiencing and I'm going to try the H4350 through this barrel.


More after testing....


Joe

 

[Tommie]

Let us know if H4350 helps the problem. If it doesn't, I'd get rough with that barrel manufacturer.

Tom

 

[AlanPF]

Joe,

Another possibility,and I did this once) is that you've tipped some faster powder back into the cannister,or your thrower) with the H1000. This would account for the sudden change, and for the variable results. The near blow-up might have had a high concentration of the faster powder.

Try a new bottle of H1000 perhaps?

Alan

BTW it will never happen to me again - I now have a rule never to have more than one type of powder in the reloading area .