[B]Desperate for advice[/B]

[M700]

Dad gum sniper wannabes...

Bud - go shoot a "tactical" comp or two. A standard rifle will do. Like an off-the-shelf Rem 700 VS. Got a 2nd place State LE trophy gathering dust around here someplace, shot w/factory ammo and a factory built rifle I picked up used for $400.

Another buddy took a factory built .223 Rem and won the "best group" at a the big sniper match at Boise Idaho a couple of years ago.

These days my rifle is a little fancier, and technically shoots better, but I'll be darned if I'm winning as often. In tactical stuff it's the shooter, not the rifle. If your rifle will average somewhere around 1/2" to 3/4" it will be competetive - if you are.

Hmmm... Might want to go sit quietly and watch carefully at a benchrest match or two and a highpower or f-class match or two as well. Plenty to learn. Lots of good guys out there who can build you a very good tactical rifle. I tend to favor Rick Freudenberg and Jim Cloward, a couple of outstanding rifle builders here in the Pacific Northwest. Let me know if you want Jim's phone number, he's the U.S. Palma team armorer and knows his way around an accurate .308 rifle. Rick's website is http://www.freudscustomrifles.com and he builds a mighty fine rifle as well. They've both built rifles used by winning shooters at major competitions, as well as rifles used by real-world tactical operators.

BTW - I know a few of the guys who've answered you and they have my respect. Great riflemen! Their advice has been on the spot.

Semper Fi, Guy

 

[jb1000br]

Dave -- since you are in M700 and Milanuk's AO...it would do you good to meet up with either of those fine folks...

JB

 

[Headseeker]

Dave,
Your replies starting with the word "BUD" to those that ruffled your feathers somewhat, or disagreed with what you are looking for are not appreciated on this site. If you think a belligerent attitude will gain any respect here, you are sadly mistaken. In fact I do not think our Moderator will tolerate much of it, and if it continues will exercise his rights at parental controls.
Danny Reever

I don't know what "bud" mean's where you come from. But if you live in the U.S it means "friend". You will often here it even in other countrie's like England, Germany generall all over Europe. So it seems's you are starting something here to me?

But since you have started it let me go ahead and show you what I do to people that backtalk me sunny *SLAP*! There you go now shut your crumbhole and go bother someone else.

As far as benchwarmer's or benchrest are concerned, they are far from good shooter's. I can see it for a 75 year old man but that's about it. Your best shooter's compete in the competiton's that require them to run and gun, shoot standing, kneeling, prone and other way's after running, crawling, rapelling etc.

Benchrest shooter's are a bunch of "Quigley Down Under" wanna-be's or sniper wanna-be's.

So I end this with in closing that I don't care if I get banned from here, it's a benchrest website. And as far as banned, your an idiot, anybody can change a few thing's around and come back under different name.

So dreever, go shoot your benchwarmer rifle, add to your beerbelly and hush your mouth boy.

 

[memilanuk]

Man, I hope there was some dry humor in there

Well, if that's your opinion of BR guys... i.e. that anyone who doesn't 'run-n-gun' ain't a real rifleman... guess I'm out too being a mere F-Class and HP shooter,just lay still like a slug and pull the trigger... no finesse at all).

But you might want to heed M700's words if you don't want to listen to the rest of us... his qualifications being what they are.

 

[jb1000br]

Dave,
Your replies starting with the word "BUD" to those that ruffled your feathers somewhat, or disagreed with what you are looking for are not appreciated on this site. If you think a belligerent attitude will gain any respect here, you are sadly mistaken. In fact I do not think our Moderator will tolerate much of it, and if it continues will exercise his rights at parental controls.
Danny Reever

I don't know what "bud" mean's where you come from. But if you live in the U.S it means "friend". You will often here it even in other countrie's like England, Germany generall all over Europe. So it seems's you are starting something here to me?

But since you have started it let me go ahead and show you what I do to people that backtalk me sunny *SLAP*! There you go now shut your crumbhole and go bother someone else.

As far as benchwarmer's or benchrest are concerned, they are far from good shooter's. I can see it for a 75 year old man but that's about it. Your best shooter's compete in the competiton's that require them to run and gun, shoot standing, kneeling, prone and other way's after running, crawling, rapelling etc.

Benchrest shooter's are a bunch of "Quigley Down Under" wanna-be's or sniper wanna-be's.

So I end this with in closing that I don't care if I get banned from here, it's a benchrest website. And as far as banned, your an idiot, anybody can change a few thing's around and come back under different name.

So dreever, go shoot your benchwarmer rifle, add to your beerbelly and hush your mouth boy.

WHOA there feller...DReever is a good friend of mine, and I can see how he took the "Bud" comment in a bad connotation earlier. So did I, but made no comment except to try to help you. Emotion is hard to convey over the net...But if you want help, putting down BR guys ain't gonna get you anywhere.

You better check your attitude at the door NOW.

WTF did you come here to this "BR site" anyway? you are getting your questions answered... and as long as you lose the 'tude, we'll all get along better.

Coming in with a chip on your shoulder RE: BR folks is childish...if you can't see what can be learned from BR, I have my doubts you are what you claim to be...

JB

 

[StephenPerry]

Head
First this is not a BR Forum. Second you need to take your game to Kolsova where you screw up your dead. Real soldiers don't need to tell their stories. Third you are lucky you are not on BR Central with your lack of knowledge but having a big mouth. Those guys would would flame your butt half way to your other side.
I was nice to you but I use to be one of the king of flames on the other side. I choose not to live like that anymore. These guys are trying to help you. You asked for help didn't you? I suggest you come back with your real name and try again.
I am one of those benchrest shooters you have formed an opinion of. We come in all sizes including a size that could bury you where you stand. And out shoot you in your own game. Lots of shooters cross over to other disciplines.
So chill out pick your ass up off the ground and try again. This 6mmBR.com is a very well put together where a benchrest shooter has nothing over a tactical shooter and vice versa. Wake up bud boy and join your peers.
Stephen Perry

 

[overbore]

George at GA precision did a super job for me with a Boughten 5c in 300wsm that will do anything you could ask of a 30 cal long range rifle. To save $$ look at my post of today for great stock- I am getting one. Overbore

 

[M700]

Wow... That was quite a change from the usual calm, intelligent discussion here at 6mmBR.com...

 

[StephenPerry]

Not necessary. Next thing we be arguing bb guns. Shades of another Forum.
Stephen Perry

 

[Headseeker]

Yea you can say I got a lil pissed. Why would anyone take "bud" as an isnsult is beyond me. Yes it can be used in a way that rude but so can "dude" or "amigo" and a lot of other verbage out there. I do think someone else took it out of concept.

 

[StephenPerry]

Head
Bud is common slang I use the name all the time. Important thing is build the gun you want and come back and share it.
Stephen Perry

 

[BountyHunter]

Headseeker

If you are serious about a tactical rig and learning to shoot it, then suggest you talk to Vernon Harrison at this site.

http://www.centralvirginiatactical.com/CVTtraining_open.htm

He is retired Special Forces sniper, certain,alphabet) federal agency etc and trains military and LE snipers now. He routinely has lines on good used tactical rifles and can tell you exactly what is working and not for a rig. right now he is working on a group buy for the new IOR 3-18x tactical scopes that are absolutely super. He has 1200 plus yards on his farm to shoot and lots of LaRue targets.

However, got to warn you he also shoots 1000 yard BR, and F-Class. Also got to tell you if you take his courses and get 25% as good as him you will be 100% better than you think you are now.

BH

 

[BoydAllen]

Headseeker,
When you get your quarter minute tactical gun, bring it to a Benchrest match and show us how easy our sport is....please. I would love to see it. Obviously I have something to learn. Maybe you could hold a class in Benchrest shooting...since you have so much experience in the sport.

In my experience as a former president of a large rifle and pistol club, that serves multiple disciplines, I learned a long time ago to respect all of them, for although they may be very different from each other, getting to the top of any of them takes skill, talent, good equipment and a lot of hard work. I would never bad mouth any of them. What would be the purpose? How would it make me sound?

Boyd Allen

 

[StephenPerry]

Boyd
I think this has been played out. We want Head to come back. Posts are thin over here. This is the most excitement I've seen over here. Boyd if you come by the Visalia shoot next weekend remember to bring my 3 feet for my base. Try and shoot the 5 shot if you can.
Stephen Perry

 

[BoydAllen]

Steve,
Thanks for the reminder about the unlimited parts. As of this moment I do plan on shooting the 5 shot on Sunday. I look forward to seeing you there.

About the other thing, I don't want to run anyone off. It's just that I would hate to see him spend a bunch more money than he needs to, and expect more in accuracy than he will get.

A long time ago a gun writer,whose name I forget) wrote that it's a lot easier to shoot well with a typewriter than with a rifle.

Bringing that up to date, I think that it is a lot easier to post pictures of a few good groups on the Internet, than it is to shoot a small agg. at registered match, with moving and fixed backers, properly measured, under what ever conditions happen during the seven minute firing period.

I can always do better when I practice on a more or less perfect day and have no time limit to force me to shoot when the wind isn't cooperating. Of course this doesn't teach me much about how to shoot under difficult conditions. I know that I need to practice at 200, with a timer, under difficult conditions, and use more sighters. With luck I will have the time to do just that, a couple of times before butting heads with the unlimiteds during the five shot nine days from now.

I think that pictures of individual groups used to proclaim the accuracy of someone's rifle are a little like what we used to call wallet groups, and may or may not represent an infrequently occurring happy accident. Don't get me wrong, in my pre Benchrest days I have carried around a few wallet groups myself, it's just that being around, and shooting Benchrest has taught me to pay a lot more attention to average or as we say aggregate figures.

We all enjoy shooting a small group, but what I really enjoy is shooting a good agg.,not that it happens that often!) because I know that it is is better proof of the overall performance of the shooter and his equipment. As in all shooting sports, there are many factors that go into a winning performance, which is why so many top Benchrest shooters go to "Tony School".

In any case, I hope that he finds a good rifle for a fair price, and does well with it shooting what ever kind of competition is most exciting to him.

Boyd

 

[memilanuk]

Just to stir the pot a bit further....

Here's what he was asking about:

...gives a 1/4 MOA guarantee with all his guns, but he states that they will all shoot 1/8 MOA, but most people can't do it that easily. When I saw one of his rifles at the range, I immediately ordered one, and have since sold my GAP so I could order another. IMO, they are the finest tactical rifles available.

Hell, maybe I was wrong... but I still think there's one hell of a lot of operator skill involved...

 

[StephenPerry]

Groups
The groups pictured above are good. I have shot 3 shot groups like that with my .338 but I don't feel a need to Post them. I feel that a benchrest quality barrel on any gun will shoot well.
But talking range groups is no comparison to benchrest which is 5 & 10 shot groups at 100,200,300 yds with moving backers that verify each shot and a time limit, this is pure adrenalin.
I admire the long range guys. They have no comparison. I also shoot benchrest pellet at 20 yds. Try that on for size. Key here don't let your macho take the place of your brains.
This thread has brought out more testosterone than any thread yet on this Forum.
Stephen Perry

 

[cntryboy1289]

I read all of this post and then when you showed your rearend, I finally just had to say something to you in the same way you spoke to the ones here that tried to help you out.

Where I come from, if I say "BUD" to you, you might ought to back up and make sure you don't get slapped just like you spoke of doing. When you come to a forum and ask a question, be prepared to get a variety of answers. You got some very good advise that you just don't seem to be able to take. You have aspirations that are unattainable and have been told as much.

You can take any action that you want and build up a tactical rifle that can shoot very well and compete as well. The very thing that you described is a rifle that can go through the muck and mire and still perform and as you have been told, just isn't going to be a 1/4 moa rifle.

So "Bud", if you don't like the answers you have been given, ride on over to some other forum and give them your business.

 

[Forum Boss]

Gentlemen,

It's OK to debate whether a tactical rifle is capable of shooting 1/4 MOA consistently.

However, let's keep it civil. Headseeker, the kind of stuff quoted below isn't welcome here. In two years I've only closed two threads, and we've never before,to my knowledge) seen this kind of stuff.

There are some very, very talented shooters who frequent this board, and trust me they are not all benchresters. You have silhouette shooters, high power guys, Camp Perry winners. You can learn a lot from them even if they don't "run and gun". We welcome all viewpoints, but we want to keep the discussions focused on shooting skills and the hardware. There's no place for personal attacks.

QUOTE:
"But since you have started it let me go ahead and show you what I do to people that backtalk me sunny *SLAP*! There you go now shut your crumbhole and go bother someone else.

As far as benchwarmer's or benchrest are concerned, they are far from good shooter's. I can see it for a 75 year old man but that's about it. Your best shooter's compete in the competiton's that require them to run and gun, shoot standing, kneeling, prone and other way's after running, crawling, rapelling etc.

Benchrest shooter's are a bunch of "Quigley Down Under" wanna-be's or sniper wanna-be's.

So I end this with in closing that I don't care if I get banned from here, it's a benchrest website. And as far as banned, your an idiot, anybody can change a few thing's around and come back under different name.

So ***** go shoot your benchwarmer rifle, add to your beerbelly and hush your mouth boy."

 

[ArtinNC]

mederater,
Some of this talk like you just posted is why I don't go to some forums and just read only and post very little.
Art