At what point do you give up on a barrel?

[butchlambert]

Mike, did you say that you are using nylon cleaning brushes? If so, it might scare you looking through a bore scope. Use bronze brushes.

 

[hogpatrol]

Mike, did you say that you are using nylon cleaning brushes? If so, it might scare you looking through a bore scope. Use bronze brushes.

I use bronze brushes. Nylon is hard on steel. YMMV and whatever floats your boat.
Check your fishing rod and reel guides. Unless you have old stuff, they're carbide and for a reason.

Yellow Brass, also considered a "Bronze", is 60% Copper, 33% Zinc, 2% Iron, 1.5% Aluminum, 1-5% Manganese, 1% Tin, .5% Nickel. Brinell Hardness of 100. Hardness of under 30 on Rockwell C scale, around 279 Brinell. BASA - Softer than Nylon and Plastic, harder than Urethane.

 

[dsculley]

If you really want to see what nylon will do to steel, check out a prop shaft that has had some fishing line wrapped around it!

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Well, the new Proof Research barrel arrived today.

Here are the Proof and Lilja barrels side by side. The proof barrel is obviously a heavier contour (uses a .825 gas block vs. the .750 on the Lilja), and the port hole is significantly smaller. Calipers show the Lilja port at .099 (after 790 rounds), and the Proof port at .080.

I plan to take this thing out to the range on Friday or Saturday of this week to see how it'll shoot. I'll probably start with H4350 and 123 Lapuas and 130 TMKs as that's what I have the most of.

 

[hogpatrol]

Good luck. Please report back as to your results.

 

[seymour fish]

No one size fits all answer. If your an experienced BR shooter with many years tuning the same cartridge you will know in the first 100 or less. If its a new cartridge or combination to you it many take you quite a few rounds depending on your tuning skill. Tuning is a skill. It needs to be practiced and developed. Trying things until something works is not tuning, there should be a method behind the madness. I am more willing than ever to change components if things dont look right. All cartridges are capable of very good accuracy if the rifles built well. If you cant get it .3-.5 moa its not the cartridges fault. Bad barrels are RARE.

Method ! Yes. Familiarity with the meaning of results of each step in the process advises timely changes

 

[DirtySteve]

For what it's worth, adjustable gas blocks are your friend in a gas gun... If you don't have one get one. adjust it till it is reliable but not throwing the brass into the next county...

 

[MikeMcCasland]

For what it's worth, adjustable gas blocks are your friend in a gas gun... If you don't have one get one. adjust it till it is reliable but not throwing the brass into the next county...

Couldn't agree more. I was running a .750 SLR gas block on the Lilja, and picked up a .825 SLR block for the Proof barrel.

I will say when pulling the gas block off the lilja, it was just barely open. As I recall, I had it set 4 clicks out from fully closed (~15-16 different settings on the block).

If I had to guess, I think that Lilja was drilled with the same port size as they drill their .308 barrels (measured .099); it was wildly over-gassed, even more so with a suppressor attached. The adjustable gas block helped for sure, but it'd still put ejector swipes on just about everything (even 123s running at 2500).

The proof barrel is drilled with what appears to be a .080 gas port, only it's two inches further down the pipe.

I strongly suspect the proof barrel is going to be a much softer shooter, and it won't trash brass near as bad. That said, I'm keeping every appendage I have crossed in the hopes it's more accurate than the Lilja was.

I'll be sure to follow up on this thread with results on Saturday afternoon.

 

[270WinDude]

To the original question, I'd plus one on it depending your experience with that cartridge. I'm a newb and going the poormans route vs the "buy the right thing first" route with everything from scope to rear rest. I'm about 400-500 rounds deep in my current gun and am just now able to somewhat understand it's accuracy potentials. I feel like if I were to get a new gun also in 270win that I could probably figure out how much a pain it would be after 1 range trip with 2 boxes of hand loads. Going forward if I move through 2 batches of load development for a 270win with same twist as now, about 60 rounds, and it doesn't perform to the standard I have in my mind I will be changing. I'm sure a lot of people will hit me on this but I've seen too many people posting amazing groups with their brand new guns and I'd hope to start out the gate with a good one. If I couldn't afford it and was stuck with a 3-500 dollar barrel then I'd figure something else out and it would probably sit.

 

[mikeeg02]

I dont trash barrels. I take them off, and put them in the corner for a while to let them think about what they are doing/ have done. If you put them in the corner long enough. They usually come back around lol.

I've had some issues with one barrel and consistency. Put it in the corner for a couple months, got my head out of my @$$ on a couple things I shouldn't have been doing/trying with that barrel/brass, and tried screwed the barrel on again last weekend, and sure enough, it's looking like a shooter.

Though my one barrel that was shooting consistently, that made me look like a fool at the world open is still sitting in the corner lol It's going to need a little more time to think about what it did.

Sometimes after taking a step back for a while, a problem that should have been obvious will become apparent and you'll smack your forehead and go "duhhhhh"

 

[jbhotrod]

Also meant to say .750 gas blocks on .308-based AR's don't usually seem to shoot as well as barrels with larger gas blocks. So likely a good choice going with the .825 IMO.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Well, just got back from the range.

I'll type something much more comprehensive up later; the barrel did show promise, but clearly doesn't like 130gr bullets.

I will say for those of you (the few on this forum) contemplating building a 6.5 AR10, DO NOT get a rifle length gas system. Extended length or a "+2" gas system is vastly superior. The 70 rounds I fired today almost came out looking like bolt gun brass; almost zero ejector swipes etc. Secondly, the recoil was close to that of a standard AR15; it's not beating me up like it was before.


As far as accuracy, I brought some previously loaded Lapua 123s to get the rifle zeroed and to tune the gas block. I was initially thrilled as that was shooting 1/2 minute. That said, all of the loads I'd brought for legitimate testing were in the 130 and 142 class; those didn't shoot as well as they did out of the Lilja.


I will say this barrel is significantly faster than the lilja. I'm getting ~150 FPS more than I was previously. Obviously the extra 2" of barrel helps, but that small amount of barrel length increase shouldn't give me that much more velocity. I don't know if it's the gas length increase or what, but I'm optimistic.

With the larger contour barrel, I did expect to see less variation in POI from the magneto speed, but it still shoots 2 minutes low with it attached.

Off to reload tonight so I can squeeze in a range trip tomorrow.

 

[Bc'z]

Smaller gas port, longer barrel and gas system that's tunable, yeah I could see where your getting more horsepower.
Your keeping the pressure behind the bullet not back in your action.

 

[MikeMcCasland]

Bumping this thread for a followup.

I had initially installed the proof barrrel on the same upper/ff handguard combo, and while it showed promise and higher velocity, it still wasn't shooting to my expectations. I should have caught this earlier, but the clearance between the gas block and rail was very tight; not contacting, but probably only .2" of clearance (this wasn't the case with the Lilja). I knew it was tight when putting it all together to see how it would shoot.

I'd had it now now 4-5 different times, and it'd shoot one group in the .3s-.4s and then another would open to 2". It was clear that the barrel was contacting the rail on recoil depending on how you mounted the rifle, or what load you were shooting.

I ended up ordering an Aero M5E1 "Enhanced" upper which is a pseudo-monolithic design. Basically it's a beefed up upper receiver, that pulls all the stresses from the handguard off the barrel nut area; this is material because I'm shooting it off an Atlas and loading it up pretty hard. In addition, the handguard also had a much larger inner diamater, that would easily clear the gas block (i.e. no contact with the HG under recoil). Today was it's maiden voyage with the Proof-Research barrel; I also tossed an 8-32x56 Sightron on there to ensure my holds were good.

I just got back from the range where I followed Erik's ~1000 yard load development at 100 yard process. Ended up clearly finding a node with 123 Scenars and two powders I have tons of (H4350 and Varget). I just have to tweak seating depth now, but honestly after all the drama and frustration this AR10 has caused, I'll take the groups as is. I haven't put calipers to them yet, but both nodes are under .5" @100, and running at 2850 and 2800 respectively. I don't think you can ask too much more out of a gas gun shot off a bi-pod.

Most important of all, the rifle shot consistently for the first time ever. Consistent and accurate.

I'm extremely excited, and figured I'd post a follow-up.

 

[Hengehold]

Let's say you have a barrel from one of the better known barrel makers out there, and you just can't seem to get it to shoot the way you'd like; how many rounds will you shoot for "load development" before just giving up and pulling it off?

If you asked me that question 15 years ago I would tell you a much higher number than I will today. I had 2 out of the last 10 barrels that would NOT shoot. After looking back at the money in ammo components, days at the range, and time at the loading bench, I will never fight with a new barrel again. I do a velocity ladder with approx 20-30 rds and 10 shot group testing around the node for another 50-60 rds. I would not go beyond 150-200 rds for load development. At that point it is cheaper to buy a new barrel.

I did find that one of the poor shooting barrels shot noticeably better after I chopped about 1-2 inches off the muzzle. Maybe it helped to stiffen up the harmonics?
-T

 

[Liven The Dream]

What caliber was you tuning an what action just curious.

.308 1-12 Blue printed 700 SA

 

[fyrewall]

I see the comparison between nylon (plastic, Rockwell M) and brass (metal, Rockwell C) has been made. This is sort of like comparing apples to oranges. The Rockwell hardness test involves measuring the force required to embed some penetrator into a material. There are numerous Rockwell tests or standards. The MOH's hardness test might be more appropriate in the rifle barrel situation; it involves a comparison of one material to scratch another material. Glass is rated 7, the stuff in Bon Ami , a feldspar is rated 6. Steel is rated 4 - 4.5, diamond is rated 10. I can easily cut through nylon line using the brass edge of a cartridge mouth but not stainless wire.

Relatively soft nylon brushes might be encrusted in stuff containing quartz (7) and other materials harder than steel (4 -4.5). The source from this stuff might be the powdered glass found in some primers, various combustion products from detonating primers and burning powder, dust, dirt, and whatever. This stuff might be the source of the scratching rather than the soft nylon.

I think the above is sort of academic as a bum barrel will show poor performance prior to wear from cleaning.

Ammo components are expensive and their costs would rapidly add up to the price of a new barrel. Using a rifle barrels to pin railroad ties together, in making retaining walls, might be extreme. Bad crown???

Under my casual standards I have never had a bad barrel made by one of the better barrel guys but have had some incidental damage causing issues.

 

[cheek9075]

I dont trash barrels. I take them off, and put them in the corner for a while to let them think about what they are doing/ have done. If you put them in the corner long enough. They usually come back around lol.

I've had some issues with one barrel and consistency. Put it in the corner for a couple months, got my head out of my @$$ on a couple things I shouldn't have been doing/trying with that barrel/brass, and tried screwed the barrel on again last weekend, and sure enough, it's looking like a shooter.

Though my one barrel that was shooting consistently, that made me look like a fool at the world open is still sitting in the corner lol It's going to need a little more time to think about what it did.

Sometimes after taking a step back for a while, a problem that should have been obvious will become apparent and you'll smack your forehead and go "duhhhhh"

I got a corner full.... guess I got a lot of thinking to do! Hate to get rid of them, but dont know what to do with them either.

 

[mikeeg02]

Full of barrels you cant get to shoot ? Or full of barrels that are shot out ?

 

[Texas10]

When your barrel looks like this after 7 or 8 rounds fired. d

This is a view down the muzzle with my endoscope, copper build up on the lands and grooves apparent. This is why i've had trouble developing a load for this 6.5 CM

First 5 shot group would print small, and subsequent groups would open up gradually, completely skewing results of my testing.