Are we all to thick to improve our propellants ?Â

[Gee]

If...... we were more intelligent, we could focus on making and improving our propellants. But, we are thought not bright enough to make our own smokeless propellents, relying on nameless and faceless chemists in large corporations. I wonder who these individuals are and if any are bench rest shooting enthusiasts ? Are any profoundly motivated like so many of us are in our sport, or is making smokeless powders for them just a job ? Do they have a forum ? I think not. Presumably they must need to make small quantities of new propellants on a lab bench when seeking to develop a or improved formulae ? So why can't we learn too ? Where would we pick up the threads of knowledge to even try ? So instead we just 'cut metal', new chambers, new barrels, & new bullet shapes.

Gee

 

[mikecr]

We could each build our own cars. Would that make sense?
How did you get a notion that this would be an easy endeavor?

 

[Gee]

I never suggested it would be an easy endeavour. Many people do build their own custom cars, but no one makes their own smokeless propellant, largely I feel because we presume it can't be done. Chemists on their lab bench employed by large corporations, must presumably be able to make small quantities when developing a new formulae ?

 

[Minesweeper3433]

Could be because of the risk and expense involved. It's a lot easier to screw up chemistry than it is to screw up an assembly line. Precision reloading is a very precise assembly line. Gunpowder is advanced chemistry which requires knowledge base access to appropriate materials and equipment. Me and my best friend got his dad, a physics and chemistry professor at our local state college to help us out with something along these lines as kids. We made or at least tried to make black powder from raw materials. We made a fancy sparkler and that was after ruining a lot of equipment in the process. He had the material equipment and knowledge base and still didn't get satisfactory results within 6 months of tinkering. (we gave up after 2 weeks) He could make the equivalent of a crude pipe bomb but getting a proper burn rate was the hard part.
Its like barrels unless you are really convinced you need to learn to make them just get them from a manufacturer.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

It's not like building your own car, it's more like producing your own gazoline.

 

[CJ6]

Making your own powder :...... I believe this is where being a ROCKET Scientist is a GOOD thing.................. Then after the powder is made you can smelt your own alloys for the BBL and Action, melt some sand for the optics, and raise silk worms for making stocks.......WOW your on to sumthin......let US know how this works out fer ya.....

 

[TheSnake]

I don't know what the intent was aginst the powder makers but the number of different powders we have today to choose from is quite remarkable. Newer powders like TrailBoss, 8208 and Leverevolution give us more and more options and directions to go. To improve on what the large corporations have provided would be near impossible. Magic dust could be the next powder name. It leaves no trace in the barrel, velocity is 6000 fps in all calibers and case configurations, expands in the case to 100% fill capacity when you seat the bullet, pressure is self regulated to never exceede 45000, shelf life of 500 years and costs 2.00 a pound retail. That should do it.

 

[fr3db3ar]

I think the equimpment involved would be cost prohibitive. Even if you had a formula how do you press and dry safely?

Some things are just better made in bulk and you get the savings because of the volume.

There are many things I'd like to make but it would cost double or triple what it cost for someone else to make.

Now, I understand there is satisfaction to go with making your own stuff. Some times it's just not worth it.

 

[markm87]

I'm not "to" thick, but I am a little "too" thick.

 

[Gee]

I guess what would be good is some input from a research chemist or lab technician of a smokeless propellant manufacturer, to comment on how they make small prototype test quanties of new formulas, presumably in the lab on a bench top, to then decide whether there is merrit in volume production.

Do any smokeless propellant manufacturers offer the public factory tours, like a distillary or brewery ?


Gee

 

[Gee]

To and Too ! Excellent. I was wondering who would pick that one up !

 

[wapiti25]

I have chemist friends that have worked in the propellant development field. Some are shooters/gunsmiths. I have technically been involved in making gun powder. The powder was for military aircraft gun's so big caliber. My job was to cut strands of nitrocellulose into granules of powder and shoot it in test guns. Do you know how long it takes to make a pound of powder by hand? The goal was to look at a burn rate additive. Been there done that, I will buy my powder in the future.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Considering that smokeless powders are made primarily of nitrocellulose and (if double-basd) nitroglycerin, I think we already have a problem.

From what I can tell, not being a person intimately familiar with the explosives laws, the basic ingredients are controlled as explosives and would thus require a special license of some sort from the state and federal governments in order to posses them.

I also have a limited knowledge of the process of making powder, but I know that stabilizers and burn rate retardents are included to make the powder harder to ignite. DNT was used during WWII and I think still today. That stuff is also an explosive.

All of this assumes that you can get Nitrocellulose from somewhere. If you had to make it, pure alcohol, nitric acid, suphuric acid, and a host of other really nasty things are required to nitrate the cellulose. To say that doing so would be extremely dangerous would be an understatement. I think that we might have better luck with getting a manufacturer to make us custom blended powders much like those that ammunition manufacturers get made.

Thinking of that, does anyone know of a manufacturer that makes extruded powder stateside?

 

[BoydAllen]

Personally, looking around at the shooting sports, and considering my own experiences, I do not think that we have a problem. It is not that we lack the intelligence to do work in this area, but that we are smart enough to understand that it is probably not the best use of scarce resources. The time and money that one spends on one thing, is not available for another. On the other hand, if you want to work on this, good luck. Let us know what you accomplish.

 

[fdshuster]

Gee: Great idea! Go ahead and do it & be sure to let us know how it works out for you. Off to my gunsmith now to buy more of that really great, ready made Vihta Vouri N133.

 

[bozo699]

I don't know what the intent was aginst the powder makers but the number of different powders we have today to choose from is quite remarkable. Newer powders like TrailBoss, 8208 and Leverevolution give us more and more options and directions to go. To improve on what the large corporations have provided would be near impossible. Magic dust could be the next powder name. It leaves no trace in the barrel, velocity is 6000 fps in all calibers and case configurations, expands in the case to 100% fill capacity when you seat the bullet, pressure is self regulated to never exceede 45000, shelf life of 500 years and costs 2.00 a pound retail. That should do it.

 

[jo191145]

Gee

I understand the gist of your statement/question.
Not a bad question at all and I applaud your line of thinking.

All the legal and safety barriers set aside perhaps the question should be
"What makes a good powder"? or "What is a good powder"?

Why does rifle barrel A prefer powder B and its clone rifle barrel C prefer powder D?
Why?


Unless you have at least a theory as to that answer your just mixin chemicals in the dark. ;D

 

[Webster]

I don't think any government agency would give you permission to make gun powder in your garage. Nitroglycerin, nitrocellulose , solvents etc. Did you ever see the protective gear they wear to clean out a meth lab? The HazMet cost to buy the chemicals would probably quadruple the cost. What are you trying to accomplish. You can buy a rifle that will shoot under 0.200" groups if you have the money and ability. The current barrel, powders and bullets are better than most of us can shoot. You would need a machine rest and a 100 yd. tunnel with controlled temperature and humidity see small differences. When you get down to very small groups its hard to determine what's going on. If your rifle could shoot 0.25" groups all day how could you tell if you made a 5% improvement. What do you think it wold cost just to extrude powder and cut millions of pieces to the same length? The powder makers probably spend hundreds of thousands of $ in their development programs. I think you are putting us on?

 

[bozo699]

I don't think any government agency would give you permission to make gun powder in your garage. Nitroglycerin, nitrocellulose , solvents etc. Did you ever see the protective gear they wear to clean out a meth lab? The HazMet cost to buy the chemicals would probably quadruple the cost. What are you trying to accomplish. You can buy a rifle that will shoot under 0.200" groups if you have the money and ability. The current barrel, powders and bullets are better than most of us can shoot. You would need a machine rest and a 100 yd. tunnel with controlled temperature and humidity see small differences. When you get down to very small groups its hard to determine what's going on. If your rifle could shoot 0.25" groups all day how could you tell if you made a 5% improvement. What do you think it wold cost just to extrude powder and cut millions of pieces to the same length? The powder makers probably spend hundreds of thousands of $ in their development programs. I think you are putting us on?

I don't think he is putting us on, I think he ask a question and he has his answer now!......leave powder making to the experts
Wayne.

 

[Killshot]

Modern gunpowder is based on nitrocellulose, with a high nitrogen content. Handling nitrocellulose is a job for experts. In the dry, unglazed, unstabilized form, nitrocellulose is one of the most sensitive and erratic compounds on the planet -- extremely dangerous. AFAIK there is only one plant in the U.S. that makes weapons-grade nitrocellulose.

It requires specialized equipment and lots of expertise. The basic raw ingredients are relatively easy to obtain. The hard part is the processing -- and that requires a lot more than laboratory equipment.

There are only a few plants that I'm aware of in the U.S. that make black powder. GOEX has had several accidents in the past and has moved the plant at least once following an accident.

Making any kind of gun powder requires expertise. Lots of it. And knowledge of explosive safety.


All that being said, my Google-Foo is strong.......here's a few interesting reads on making it yourself. http://www.dangerouslaboratories.org/foxfire5.html
http://www.instructables.com/id/Gunpowder/
http://cavemanchemistry.com/oldcave/projects/gunpowder/index.html

And then there's good, old Wikipedia : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder