Are there some barrels that are impossible to load develop for?

[CamTheBam]

Hi Guys,

In your experience are there some barrels which are impossible to load dev. for?

I pride myself on being able to develop 3-4fps ES loads, but I have one rifle where I‘ve spent about 5 years trying EVRYTHING, and I cannot get it below 20-30fps ES. Even with an AMP annealer, AutoTrickler v3 and neck turning/weight sorting. I’m about ready to chuck-in the towel.

 

[shoot4fun]

So goes the expression "can't see the forest for the trees".
Just wondering how many very accurate loads you passed over while your pride was looking for the "3-4fps ES".

 

[CamTheBam]

So goes the expression "can't see the forest for the trees".
Just wondering how many very accurate loads you passed over while your pride was looking for the "3-4fps ES".

You say that like it’s wrong to take pride in what you do, or that 3-4fps ES is a frivolous goal to strive for? It’s hyper accurate, but the ES starts to trip it up at longer ranges.

 

[mgunderson]

Gotta take what the barrel will give. They are not all the same. Not all calibers are capable of true single digit ES either. Flame me if you want.

I suggest a powder change for a temperament barrel. Sometimes they want something different. I had a problem barrel and figured out the nut behind the rifle was not tight.

 

[shoot4fun]

You say that like it’s wrong to take pride in what you do, or that 3-4fps ES is a frivolous goal to strive for? It’s hyper accurate, but the ES starts to trip it up at longer ranges.

It is not a frivolous goal but there is frivolity in wasting a barrel's potential trying to get to that single goal.
It may not be ES that keeps it from being accurate at longer ranges (whatever you define that to be) as much as you have a load that is just out of tune at those longer distances.
It may also be, and I have been guilty myself, that you just decided you aren't ever going to shoot as well at those longer distances with that barrel. I fully believe the "mind games" we play with ourselves defeat us long before things like ES do.

 

[Steveb]

When I have a barrel/ rifle combo that doesn't shoot, the first thing I do is check the front screws mounting the scope rings or rail and make sure they are not touching the barrel tendon in the receiver. Second thing is I change the scope. I found this clears up most of the problem barrels. Third thing is after 2-300 rounds I rebarrel and give up on the barrel.

 

[358WCF]

This one was tough.

 

[okie]

This one was tough.

View attachment 1284401

lol---I got a 30-06 that looks similar to that---horse rolled on it...

 

[garandman]

Everything I've ever tried for the AR15 (4-5 of them actually) I never got better than 0.75" @ 100.,

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

I doubt there is a chronograph that will consistently/accurately measure shot to shot variation with that resolution. 1/4 of one percent of 3000'/second is 7.5, not counting the +,- nature of measuring equipment.

 

[Bill Norris]

Just my opinion, but E S don't seem to be a denominator @ 100 yds. I've shot one hole groups that showed over 100 fps spread and shot more opener groups with single digits so I just let my target tell me what my rifle is doing.

 

[DirtySteve]

How does it group??? If it groups well at the distance you shoot, ES means nothing.. Even if you shoot at 1000... If it shoots it shoots.. If it doesn't move on..

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

This one was tough.

View attachment 1284401

But my ES was 3fps. I just don't understand

 

[Webster]

Hi Guys,

In your experience are there some barrels which are impossible to load dev. for?

I pride myself on being able to develop 3-4fps ES loads, but I have one rifle where I‘ve spent about 5 years trying EVRYTHING, and I cannot get it below 20-30fps ES. Even with an AMP annealer, AutoTrickler v3 and neck turning/weight sorting. I’m about ready to chuck-in the towel.

What's the group size. ES means nothing unless your shooting long distance in competition. Low ES means they are going the same speed but maybe not the same place on the target.

 

[Webster]

Hi Guys,

In your experience are there some barrels which are impossible to load dev. for?

I pride myself on being able to develop 3-4fps ES loads, but I have one rifle where I‘ve spent about 5 years trying EVRYTHING, and I cannot get it below 20-30fps ES. Even with an AMP annealer, AutoTrickler v3 and neck turning/weight sorting. I’m about ready to chuck-in the towel.

Describe the rifle and what it's used for. Who made the barrel?

 

[D-4297]

Think it was Brian Litz who won a Natl Championship with a rifle that was shooting SD's in the high 20"s , and ES all over the map . Last Thursday ; on a 600 yard practice at BA , I shot a 200 - 13x , and a 200 - 14x about a half hour apart . First string , SD was 19 , and second string , SD was 26 . But 200 is 200 . I can live with funny SD for 200's .

 

[INTJ]

You say that like it’s wrong to take pride in what you do, or that 3-4fps ES is a frivolous goal to strive for? It’s hyper accurate, but the ES starts to trip it up at longer ranges.

That isn't necessarily true. Nobody shoots smaller groups at 1000 yds than the discipline of long range benchrest. Period. We do not obsess over low ES. We obsess over group size.

More often than not, the smallest group doesn't have the smallest ES. Even when tuning at short range (200-300 yds), we never pick a load with a smaller ES over a load with a smaller group. Further, when we are shooting our tuning ladders at 1000 yds we often don't even bother to get out the chrono.

ES is simply an indicator. If it is under 20 fps it is fine, and under 30 fps is probably okay too. The goal is to have a tuning node where the bullets will impact at the same POI with a 20-30 FPS velocity spread. (We don't always get that wide if a node.) Now if the ES is 50 or 60--while it might shoot a good 100 yd group--it probably won't shoot a good long range group.

So there are some things ES can tell us. When I occasionally chrono my 1000 yd BR loads, they are usually in the single digits to low teens. This tells me my loading practices are solid. It tells me that things like weighing primers and seating them to an exact crush with a K&M Primer Gauge does make a positive difference.

If the ES is small but the group is big, then my loading practices are fine but the barrel hates that powder/bullet/seating combo.

If the ES is big but the group is small, it might be an indication of needing more neck tension. The theory here is that the bullet needs to be delayed a tiny bit more before it starts down the barrel to help the powder burn more uniformly.

I recently worked up a load for a customer rifle. It was a hunting rifle in 338 Lapua. The load I found produces a .4" 3-shot group at 100 yds and had an ES of 22. That was the best I could get this rifle to shoot.

The customer took it to a long range shooting course and hit every target out to 2600 yds. He said he still wasn't really happy with the load because it's ES was 22. I pointed out that if he was consistently making hits to 2600 yds then the ES was fine. Then I explained the whole deal with ES and he is now happy.

 

[piie]

You say that like it’s wrong to take pride in what you do, or that 3-4fps ES is a frivolous goal to strive for? It’s hyper accurate, but the ES starts to trip it up at longer ranges.

If it's hyper accurate, and it's only the ES (ie, velocity variances) that is the problem, then to me it would eliminate anything wrong with the barrel / rifle / scope. The ES would - IMHO - be related to ignition / combustion issues then. You already do the rest of the typical steps correct as far as I can see. Have you tried
a) different powder as suggested by another poster
b) different primer - possibly even playing with primer seating depth

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

I cant remember the last time I shot over a chronograph

 

[Forum Boss]

ES 3-6 is possible, but extremely difficult, and probably not repeatable for four 5-shot groups in a row without extreme procedures and an exceptional barrel. The best F-Class shooters I know are achieving 10 or under ES for five shots, pretty regularly. This is with regular annealing, AutoTricklers, base-to-ogive sorted bullets, turned necks.

ES does not directly correlate to group size on target. However, consistently low ES is a darn good indicator that you are doing things RIGHT during the reloading process. This would include:

Very consistent powder charge
Bullet base to ogive held very consistent
Neck tension consistent, and neck chamfers smooth and consistent
Consistent seating pressure (now measurable with AMP press)
Good selection of primer for your powder and primer hole size

100-200 is a different game. No question some insanely good groups have been shot with high ES. However I have every confidence that ES over 20 will show up at 600 yards on target as a lower score and bigger group size. My 6BR loads for 600 ran around 11-12 fps ES. That was with Varget and CCI 450s and Scenar 105s.

Back to the OP -- If he wants to get the ES below 20 fps he needs to consider changing powder. But the issue is probably related to the barrel.

I wasted nearly two years trying to get a factory .260 Rem barrel to shoot. I finally replaced it with a 6mmBR PacNor. The first measured group out of that barrel, rounds 17-20 (4 shots), was a witnessed 0.168" at 100 yards. ES about 15-16 fps, if I recall. Switching to an arbor press and getting more carbon inside the necks lowered that to 11-12 fps and I was happy with that, as the gun had less than 2" of vertical at 600 yards (with low winds).

The eye-opening discovery of going from a 0.8-MOA .260 Rem with 20+ ES to a quarter-MOA 6BR with ES in low teens (with exact same action, stock, and trigger) was what inspired me to start this website way back in 2004, as 6mmBR.com .