26 for the .308 and 28 for the 300, The 30 inch ain't getting you a thing and it may cost you accuracy "bullet still in the barrel when the whip comes down"
Are Remington 700 Barrels Button or Hammer Forged
- Thread starter brianc74
- Start date
k80skeet
Silver $$ Contributor
That is correct. All the 40-X's were button pulled the rest were hammer forged. I wonder why??
DaveTooley
Gold $$ Contributor
783's are buttoned or were
k80skeet
Silver $$ Contributor
And the answer is but the time they started building the 40-X's the mandrels were so rough the had to do something to make sure they were accurate.
CHF is not a magic bullet. If you do everything right and have clean, crisp mandrells you will always get a more consistent result than you can with button rifling in a mass production setting. Notice I did not say better? Better in what way?
When you look down a CHF barrel that is not a POS it should look like you are looking at a dark colored mirror. It should look like someone cut groves in a piece of glass. Just like you can turn out a fantastic barrel with CHF you can also turn out a turd.
Any barrel maker that is anti CHF is either ignorant or has too much confirmation bias to be intellectually honest. Every car salesman will tell you his car or truck is the best even if it is a POS. Everyone selling you a horse will fill your head with heritage and breeding! If you talk to Brux, Krieger, Proof or Bartlien they will tell you single point cut rifling is the best. If you talk to Hart, Shilen, Douglas, LW, Bergara or Lija they will tell you button rifling is the best way to make a barrel. Someone has to be a liar because they can not both be true!
All of the best sniper weapon systems globally use CHF barrels. The US Army TDP for modern sniper weapon systems requires what 20,000 round accuracy life for being able to kill a man cleanly at 800m for 7,62 NATO and well beyond that for all the other cartridges. You can not get close to that accuracy life with a button rifled barrel.
I am not disparaging custom made button rifled barrels but I am disparaging mass produced OEM button rifled barrels as the single most inconsistent thing on new rifles for the 50 years I have been alive.
No one uses 4140, 4150 or 416R in aviation gun barrels or in tank barrels or Artillery barrels. None of them are button rifled! No machine gun to day uses button rifled barrels. In fact I do not think there is a single modern military rifled barrel that uses button rifled barrels.
The only company I know of in the USA that sells a CHF barrel blanks that is not designed for an AR is LW. There is a Russian Ebay seller as well but I have not seen anything from them in a while. I think it was Alpha Barrels or something like that.
So how is anyone me included going to be able to speak intelligently when we are comparing mass produced CHF barrels from OEM rifle manufactures and low volume custom made button rifled barrels available on the after market from guys that just make barrels and have a vested interest is selling their barrels? You might as well be asking a parent to admit their kid is garbage and yours is clearly better!
A lot of people on the internet are compulsive liars when it comes to group size their rifle can shoot. For all the talk about sub MOA factory Remington's with factory ammo I never see them at the range or competition! To listen to internet forums sub MOA Remingtons are as common as table grapes or red apples! All of the fantastic shooting Remingtons in my life have always been reworked and rebarreled or built for the government under tight technical data packs to ensure a quality weapon was delivered.
The old 40X was not mass produced it came out of Remingtons Custom Shop so people putting them forward as examples are not comparing apples to apples. On top of that reworked 40X rifles where always better than the Remington factory version,
When you look down a CHF barrel that is not a POS it should look like you are looking at a dark colored mirror. It should look like someone cut groves in a piece of glass. Just like you can turn out a fantastic barrel with CHF you can also turn out a turd.
Any barrel maker that is anti CHF is either ignorant or has too much confirmation bias to be intellectually honest. Every car salesman will tell you his car or truck is the best even if it is a POS. Everyone selling you a horse will fill your head with heritage and breeding! If you talk to Brux, Krieger, Proof or Bartlien they will tell you single point cut rifling is the best. If you talk to Hart, Shilen, Douglas, LW, Bergara or Lija they will tell you button rifling is the best way to make a barrel. Someone has to be a liar because they can not both be true!
All of the best sniper weapon systems globally use CHF barrels. The US Army TDP for modern sniper weapon systems requires what 20,000 round accuracy life for being able to kill a man cleanly at 800m for 7,62 NATO and well beyond that for all the other cartridges. You can not get close to that accuracy life with a button rifled barrel.
I am not disparaging custom made button rifled barrels but I am disparaging mass produced OEM button rifled barrels as the single most inconsistent thing on new rifles for the 50 years I have been alive.
No one uses 4140, 4150 or 416R in aviation gun barrels or in tank barrels or Artillery barrels. None of them are button rifled! No machine gun to day uses button rifled barrels. In fact I do not think there is a single modern military rifled barrel that uses button rifled barrels.
The only company I know of in the USA that sells a CHF barrel blanks that is not designed for an AR is LW. There is a Russian Ebay seller as well but I have not seen anything from them in a while. I think it was Alpha Barrels or something like that.
So how is anyone me included going to be able to speak intelligently when we are comparing mass produced CHF barrels from OEM rifle manufactures and low volume custom made button rifled barrels available on the after market from guys that just make barrels and have a vested interest is selling their barrels? You might as well be asking a parent to admit their kid is garbage and yours is clearly better!
A lot of people on the internet are compulsive liars when it comes to group size their rifle can shoot. For all the talk about sub MOA factory Remington's with factory ammo I never see them at the range or competition! To listen to internet forums sub MOA Remingtons are as common as table grapes or red apples! All of the fantastic shooting Remingtons in my life have always been reworked and rebarreled or built for the government under tight technical data packs to ensure a quality weapon was delivered.
The old 40X was not mass produced it came out of Remingtons Custom Shop so people putting them forward as examples are not comparing apples to apples. On top of that reworked 40X rifles where always better than the Remington factory version,
Actually, hammer forged rifling is common among factory rifles. Remington, Ruger and many others, including European brands.
D Coots
Silver $$ Contributor
I do not need to look any further than the equipment lists in SRBR to see what is winning in that particular field.
Later
Dave
FNSafari
Gold $$ Contributor
I had a 2K$ brand new Sako 85 .223 rifle that had a barrel that looked horrible...tool marks, inclusions, pitting. I called Beretta USA and they sent me a return label. I sent it back and they told me they would replace the barrel. To make a long story short, after finding out this spring they were going to replace the rifle and then finding out they had no rifles to do so, they did send me a full refund. Took a year to resolve. No complaints there, but never, never again!!
AlNyhus
Silver $$ Contributor
Amen, buddy. The Interweb is a weird place....
IIRC Hammer Forging induces the most stress on a barrel ( it is made by pounding the crap out of it), button barrels less so, and cut rifling has least inherent internal stress. If you are sniping and the first shot only counts then the stress imparted by the manufacturing method most likely won't rear it's ugly head. If you are shooting competition, or a dog town where multiple shots are the norm which elevates barrel temperature odds are that HF barrels will not serve you well- no matter what stress relief methods they claim to employ post forging.
c3d4b2
Silver $$ Contributor
Here is a link to discussions on measuring residual stress.
CHF barrels also have the chamber forged as part of the mandrel, why do the chambers vary?
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