Erik Cortina
Team Lapua Brux Borden Captain
mikecr said:
Only if you use it for snipe hunting! ;D
Are 300 WSM brasses to stressed to reload more than four times?
- Thread starter Yellow11
- Start date
Only if you use it for snipe hunting! ;D
mikecr said:
That's easy. Buy 5000 cases and shoot them at .300 Savage velocities.
Yellow11
You are now suffering through the ordeals of a long thread.
My 300 WSM Norma brass at 3 firings barely moves enough to feel the die squeezing anything at all down.I am using 64.5 grains of H4350 and a 187 BIB bullet and it is shooting absolutely lights out.
On your first firing the brass expands to fill your chamber and this is why it shortens in length most of the time.Your shoulders move forward but they also spring back so it is easy to remove and rechamber the empty cases.
As you keep firing the brass it keeps expanding in the chamber and springing back less each time until it starts to click when your opening the bolt at the top of the throw.It does this because the action or bolt or both have a primary extraction cam that starts moving the brass in a rearward direction.
When your brass is clicking on bolt opening your base is in need of sizing right around the web area.
If you brass is tough to chamber it has grown enough in length that you need to push the shoulder back.
Now for the tricky part.
If your brass is tough to extract(clicks) and you only use a body die to squeeze down the area around the web you can and will depending on the number of rounds on the brass move the brass forward.It will now extract easily but will be tough to chamber as the brass moved the shoulder forward.
When you said you had your full length die just kissing the shellholder and will back it off this isn't helping.
You need to know how far your shoulder is being bumped back when the die is in firm contact with the shellholder.This will let you know if the shellholder needs a little bit of sanding in order to fit properly.
Without knowing that measurement you can simply sand the shelholder down with some 80 grit sandpaper and see what
happens.
I hope I am not coming across as being short here but your brass unless the primer pockets are loose should last quite a long time.
Hot loads loosen up primer pockets and do nothing to the rest of your brass that isn't fixed by normal sizing.
Lynn
You are now suffering through the ordeals of a long thread.
My 300 WSM Norma brass at 3 firings barely moves enough to feel the die squeezing anything at all down.I am using 64.5 grains of H4350 and a 187 BIB bullet and it is shooting absolutely lights out.
On your first firing the brass expands to fill your chamber and this is why it shortens in length most of the time.Your shoulders move forward but they also spring back so it is easy to remove and rechamber the empty cases.
As you keep firing the brass it keeps expanding in the chamber and springing back less each time until it starts to click when your opening the bolt at the top of the throw.It does this because the action or bolt or both have a primary extraction cam that starts moving the brass in a rearward direction.
When your brass is clicking on bolt opening your base is in need of sizing right around the web area.
If you brass is tough to chamber it has grown enough in length that you need to push the shoulder back.
Now for the tricky part.
If your brass is tough to extract(clicks) and you only use a body die to squeeze down the area around the web you can and will depending on the number of rounds on the brass move the brass forward.It will now extract easily but will be tough to chamber as the brass moved the shoulder forward.
When you said you had your full length die just kissing the shellholder and will back it off this isn't helping.
You need to know how far your shoulder is being bumped back when the die is in firm contact with the shellholder.This will let you know if the shellholder needs a little bit of sanding in order to fit properly.
Without knowing that measurement you can simply sand the shelholder down with some 80 grit sandpaper and see what
happens.
I hope I am not coming across as being short here but your brass unless the primer pockets are loose should last quite a long time.
Hot loads loosen up primer pockets and do nothing to the rest of your brass that isn't fixed by normal sizing.
Lynn
Lynn.
I have tried reducing the brass length, indeed I have taken it back to the same measurement of a new brass.
The tightness appears to be purely related to the circumferance of the brass, rather than its length. This is illustrated by markings on polished brass when I have attempted, unsuccessfully, to chamber resized brass.
From helpful comments made by people such as yourself, my belief that I should get more firings out of my brass seems to be well founded. Assuming this is the case, then I must conclude that my chamber is too tight for the standard Redding FL die to squeeze it back into size.
My conclusion is that a custom made die is the order of the day.
The rifle is actual 7mm/300 wsm, the load is 66g RL25 and the tips are 180 Sierra MK 180g.
I have tried reducing the brass length, indeed I have taken it back to the same measurement of a new brass.
The tightness appears to be purely related to the circumferance of the brass, rather than its length. This is illustrated by markings on polished brass when I have attempted, unsuccessfully, to chamber resized brass.
From helpful comments made by people such as yourself, my belief that I should get more firings out of my brass seems to be well founded. Assuming this is the case, then I must conclude that my chamber is too tight for the standard Redding FL die to squeeze it back into size.
My conclusion is that a custom made die is the order of the day.
The rifle is actual 7mm/300 wsm, the load is 66g RL25 and the tips are 180 Sierra MK 180g.
How can ANYBODY make WSM brass last forever?
Size the chamber correctly
Avoid SAAMI MAX
Size the brass correctly
This applies to many well designed cartridges, as the WSM is.
There is nothing wrong with the WSM cartridge, or it's reloading brass.
It holds low body taper, high shoulder angle, strong webs, and enough capacity to drive the best bullets with ease.
There is excellent reamers, and dies, and load data for it.
There are plenty of successful competitors using it.
If you can't achieve success with this cartridge, you need to go back to some basics in reloading.
That's just my opinion.
Size the chamber correctly
Avoid SAAMI MAX
Size the brass correctly
This applies to many well designed cartridges, as the WSM is.
There is nothing wrong with the WSM cartridge, or it's reloading brass.
It holds low body taper, high shoulder angle, strong webs, and enough capacity to drive the best bullets with ease.
There is excellent reamers, and dies, and load data for it.
There are plenty of successful competitors using it.
If you can't achieve success with this cartridge, you need to go back to some basics in reloading.
That's just my opinion.
wbm said:
wbm said:
Only if avoiding SAAMI MAX is a thermodynamic paradox...wbm said:
Dave T, bad information can be as offensive as truths.
Count the number of WSMs here: http://www.pa1000yard.com/wo/wostandings.php?year=2011&cls=2+Gun+Overall&grsc=Overall&send=Submit
Explain to me why a WSM should be generalized as having ANY issue, -without somebody throwing a BS flag all over it.
My 'kind of attitude' represents contrast to folklore and detrimental rumors. It's my way of bringing rationale to the table that is meant to be considered merely for perspective.
It is not personal.
Now, if I said nothing, someone might walk away from this thread with a notion that they should avoid WSM cartridges -while that's not directly true.
Mikecr
I already asked him that question.
Yellow11
You can get a chamber cut so tight that your full length die won't squeeeze the brass down enough to fit your rifle.
If that hapens you either buy a tight base die or you polish the chamber out.
This is an example on why making your chamber larger will allow your current die to now work.Remember these are only wild numbers so the world wide web viewers will better understand what is happening here.
If your current chamber is 1.5 inches in diameter and your die is 1 inch in diameter it sizes your brass 1/2 inch and it fits tight after 4 firings.
If you polish the chamber to 1.75 inches your very same die will still size the brass down to 1 inch but instead of it moving the brass 1/2 inch it is now moving the brass 3/4 of an inch and it will now fit smoothly into the chamber.
Before you get a small base die or have your chamber polished I would sand the shellholder on some 80 grit sandpaper and see if making firm contact now solves your problem.A shellholder over here costs about $5 and you will know the results instantly.Sanding the shellholder is not meant to make your brass shorter.Sanding the shellholder allows the base of your brass to go further into the die thus sizing the base more.
My cases are 0.554 at the bases widest point.
Lynn
I already asked him that question.
Yellow11
You can get a chamber cut so tight that your full length die won't squeeeze the brass down enough to fit your rifle.
If that hapens you either buy a tight base die or you polish the chamber out.
This is an example on why making your chamber larger will allow your current die to now work.Remember these are only wild numbers so the world wide web viewers will better understand what is happening here.
If your current chamber is 1.5 inches in diameter and your die is 1 inch in diameter it sizes your brass 1/2 inch and it fits tight after 4 firings.
If you polish the chamber to 1.75 inches your very same die will still size the brass down to 1 inch but instead of it moving the brass 1/2 inch it is now moving the brass 3/4 of an inch and it will now fit smoothly into the chamber.
Before you get a small base die or have your chamber polished I would sand the shellholder on some 80 grit sandpaper and see if making firm contact now solves your problem.A shellholder over here costs about $5 and you will know the results instantly.Sanding the shellholder is not meant to make your brass shorter.Sanding the shellholder allows the base of your brass to go further into the die thus sizing the base more.
My cases are 0.554 at the bases widest point.
Lynn
WBM
What Mikecr is trying to convey is if properly resized your brass should withstand many many firings even if it is 300 WSM brass.
The reason most shooters experience short brass life is there reloading dies don't match there chamber very well and they oversize there brass.The end result is cracked necks usually.
Hot rounds will expand the primer pockets sooner than weaker rounds so if one is losing cases due to lose primer pockets there isn't much that will fix it.
If the primer pockets are not getting lose there is no reason the brass shouldn't last a long time.
That said if your using a weak military action for your build and the loads are too hot you can actually stretch the action or sink the locking lugs into there abuttments.
Also as was posted earlier if you have a action with a small diameter barrel tenon this can cause similar problems.The brass is 0.554 so if the bottom of the barrels threads are 1.000 inches in diameter you have less than 0.250 of barrel surrounding each side of your loaded rounds.At 65,000 pounds of pressure the chamber will expand more because it simply doesn't have as much meat around it as say a 6BR chamber would with a 0.473 diameter piece of brass or a 223 with brass that is 0.378 inches in diameter.All of your loads would still have 65,000 pounds of pressure but the smaller cases would allow for the barrels tenon to be thicker so you get less distortion on each firing with the smaller diameter cases.
I am using 2 inch thick BAT actions because they have 1.250 barrel tenons on them leaving me more meat around the chamber.
Lynn
What Mikecr is trying to convey is if properly resized your brass should withstand many many firings even if it is 300 WSM brass.
The reason most shooters experience short brass life is there reloading dies don't match there chamber very well and they oversize there brass.The end result is cracked necks usually.
Hot rounds will expand the primer pockets sooner than weaker rounds so if one is losing cases due to lose primer pockets there isn't much that will fix it.
If the primer pockets are not getting lose there is no reason the brass shouldn't last a long time.
That said if your using a weak military action for your build and the loads are too hot you can actually stretch the action or sink the locking lugs into there abuttments.
Also as was posted earlier if you have a action with a small diameter barrel tenon this can cause similar problems.The brass is 0.554 so if the bottom of the barrels threads are 1.000 inches in diameter you have less than 0.250 of barrel surrounding each side of your loaded rounds.At 65,000 pounds of pressure the chamber will expand more because it simply doesn't have as much meat around it as say a 6BR chamber would with a 0.473 diameter piece of brass or a 223 with brass that is 0.378 inches in diameter.All of your loads would still have 65,000 pounds of pressure but the smaller cases would allow for the barrels tenon to be thicker so you get less distortion on each firing with the smaller diameter cases.
I am using 2 inch thick BAT actions because they have 1.250 barrel tenons on them leaving me more meat around the chamber.
Lynn
Lynn.
What brand(s??) of WSM brass do you use and how many firings do you normally get with your match loads before you retire the brass?
I wish could make weight for F-Open with a 2 inch BAT because I have had results that are consistent with your observations about barrel tenons, etc.
Thanks.
What brand(s??) of WSM brass do you use and how many firings do you normally get with your match loads before you retire the brass?
I wish could make weight for F-Open with a 2 inch BAT because I have had results that are consistent with your observations about barrel tenons, etc.
Thanks.
Tony
I am using Norma brass.
My culled cases have been shot over 10 times each as I use them to develop my loads and for testing.I only toss out my brass when it no longer holds a primer.
My match loads all have 3-5 firings on them as I toss the barrel at 1500 rounds.I don't shoot brass in a match until it has two firings on it.I want the shoulder to stabilize before taking the brass to a match.
I then use my retired brass for my hunting/plinking /fun rifles.
62 grains of H4350 and a 190 Sierra is quite a nice load in both of my heavy rifles.That said someone shooting F-Open could adjust that load to fit a similar weight bullet of a more modern design.
Lynn
I am using Norma brass.
My culled cases have been shot over 10 times each as I use them to develop my loads and for testing.I only toss out my brass when it no longer holds a primer.
My match loads all have 3-5 firings on them as I toss the barrel at 1500 rounds.I don't shoot brass in a match until it has two firings on it.I want the shoulder to stabilize before taking the brass to a match.
I then use my retired brass for my hunting/plinking /fun rifles.
62 grains of H4350 and a 190 Sierra is quite a nice load in both of my heavy rifles.That said someone shooting F-Open could adjust that load to fit a similar weight bullet of a more modern design.
Lynn
Sounds like the brass for my 284 Shehane. I can get 10-12 firings out of Lapua before they can't hold a primer. I am thinking more in terms of a 7mm WSM for F-Open but am concerned with brass life since we use large numbers of case and the prep can get time consuming. I have had the same experience with new brass. I like to fire it a couple of times before I use it in a match. I had thought I might be able to do my load development with some cheap brass to avoid excessive pressures on the good stuff to see if that would extend the useful life of the match brass.
Today, I have had a brain wave and, hopefully, a breakthough... 
From the information you kind people have offered, and after ensuring the shoulders were set to their appropriate location, I became even more convinced that my problem reflected a discrepancy between FL die and reamer dimensions.
Assuming my assumption was correct, the answer to my problem appeared to be a customised FL die. However, no such item is available in the UK and therefore I would need to send sample brasses to the USA and then wait for both a die to be made and the subsequent delay for the die to be dispatched to the UK and the further delay of customs clearance.
Eager to speed up a cure, my "bright idea" was to cut a patch of 0.002" steel shim stock, sized to reflect the surface area of a 300 wsm brass. The shim was cut using a craft knife, rather than shears (to avoid any burred edges) and the finished piece rolled and slide in to the FL die.
After gingerly offering up a brass for sizing, I was delighted to find the shim stock instantly bedded itself inside the die and stayed safely in place whilst I re-sized 100 brasses.
Since the roll of shim had a butt joint, I opted to partially size, turn the brass, sized a little more, turned the brass again and finalize the sizing.
Whilst not planning to use these brasses for competition work, I am hoping they will at least give me a further 3 or 4 loadings for hunting or practise work.
... the proof will be in the eating and I will load up a few rounds tomorrow, check them for concenticity and also to see how they fire.
I am not suggesting my use of shim method is superior to using a custom made die, but at least it offers an instant remedy.
From the information you kind people have offered, and after ensuring the shoulders were set to their appropriate location, I became even more convinced that my problem reflected a discrepancy between FL die and reamer dimensions.
Assuming my assumption was correct, the answer to my problem appeared to be a customised FL die. However, no such item is available in the UK and therefore I would need to send sample brasses to the USA and then wait for both a die to be made and the subsequent delay for the die to be dispatched to the UK and the further delay of customs clearance.
Eager to speed up a cure, my "bright idea" was to cut a patch of 0.002" steel shim stock, sized to reflect the surface area of a 300 wsm brass. The shim was cut using a craft knife, rather than shears (to avoid any burred edges) and the finished piece rolled and slide in to the FL die.
After gingerly offering up a brass for sizing, I was delighted to find the shim stock instantly bedded itself inside the die and stayed safely in place whilst I re-sized 100 brasses.
Since the roll of shim had a butt joint, I opted to partially size, turn the brass, sized a little more, turned the brass again and finalize the sizing.
Whilst not planning to use these brasses for competition work, I am hoping they will at least give me a further 3 or 4 loadings for hunting or practise work.
... the proof will be in the eating and I will load up a few rounds tomorrow, check them for concenticity and also to see how they fire.
I am not suggesting my use of shim method is superior to using a custom made die, but at least it offers an instant remedy.
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