AR Platform for F/TR - barrel length?

[XTR]

The solution isn’t limiting the kit. Take a page from bicycle racing. Once you qualify as HM you’re no longer eligible. Move on to F-TR, Service or Match Rifle. Problem solved.

*That should get me some hate mail*

 

[Walt Krafft]

Ohh the horror! Sandbagging will be rampant. Go one step more to get back to the intent of the class, any shooter who holds a Master or higher classification in any high power disipline is ineligible.
Make it a claiming match too, winning rifle can be claimed by any other competitor for $1500.

 

[XTR]

Ohh the horror! Sandbagging will be rampant. Go one step more to get back to the intent of the class, any shooter who holds a Master or higher classification in any high power disipline is ineligible.
Make it a claiming match too, winning rifle can be claimed by any other competitor for $1500.

I want to like this a whole lot

 

[Andy Legg]

Fellas, before giving advise for an AR Tactical rig, I would recommend that the rules concerning the length of loaded ammo be known. Another words does it need to be magazine loadable?I have tried to get that information from the NRA with no success. CMP I don't know. Shooters I'm around and have shot a large matches tell me it's mag length only. The heavier bullets won't fit that bill.
I'm not trying to start a lengthy discussion to divert from the original post. But that needs to be addressed.

My boys and I have been shooting AR Tactical for quite sometime now (Started prior to COVID). We have competed in both CMP and NRA matches in many Club, State, Tegionsl and National Matches.

The first year I was concerned about the possibility of ammo needing to be Mag-Length due to the way the rules were written. We would carry mag length ammo just in case when traveling to a match we had not shot in before.

Alll said, I have Never seen anyone’s ammo checked for length and would sugget that if it were to be checked that the rule book should provide guidance to an actual measurement to be compared against.

It is still possible that a local MD could read too much into the rules, but not likely.

The more questionable issues have been use of Front Rests (Sand Bags) with ears and NRA not allowing Dialing Down Scope Magnification and Taping…..Never seen any Ammo Issues.

 

[ELR LVR]

Good thinking on the mag-length ammo. I think I'll just default to 77 SMKs and see how that goes. But, I would be surprised if mag-length is a rule for AR-Tac as it isn't a rule for regular SR at 500/600yd. I'll ask our CMP match director for some clarification and post here if he has any.

I might suggest trying the 69 TMK's over the 77 SMK
BC is a touch better, .375 vs. .372
and mag length is achieveable, plus being a lighter bullet
You may get higher velocities, which in the end
Translates to less drift

 

[Jeff Porter]

My boys and I have been shooting AR Tactical for quite sometime now (Started prior to COVID). We have competed in both CMP and NRA matches in many Club, State, Tegionsl and National Matches.

The first year I was concerned about the possibility of ammo needing to be Mag-Length due to the way the rules were written. We would carry mag length ammo just in case when traveling to a match we had not shot in before.

Alll said, I have Never seen anyone’s ammo checked for length and would sugget that if it were to be checked that the rule book should provide guidance to an actual measurement to be compared against.

It is still possible that a local MD could read too much into the rules, but not likely.

The more questionable issues have been use of Front Rests (Sand Bags) with ears and NRA not allowing Dialing Down Scope Magnification and Taping…..Never seen any Ammo Issues.

Andy, I have been waiting to hear your opinion on this. You may have more experience than any other shooter on this forum with shooting at different venues and having dealt with different Match Directors attitudes and interpretations of the rules.

What are your suggestion for a unified NRA/ CMP rules for AR Tactical ? I always wondered about the scope magnification taping of the power to 15-16x. Is that a big deal?

Have you or you boys felt a desire to try Sling or F class or are you totally committed to AR Tac?

IMHO - The intent of this class, as previously stated, was to have a low barrier to entry equipment and cost wise, run what you brung class for new shooters and a way to keep older shooters on the line longer feeding in from both sling and F class shooters. I considered it a bit like the CMP Games matches with the vintage rifles all fired on the SR targets. Making Master or High Master in AR-Tac is like a Silver or Gold score in a games match. It does not take away from the accomplishment, but it does not correlate to making that score with a sling or on the F target.

Just guessing now, I think the use of a magazine requirement was intended to force the use of mag length ammo in this class to encourage use of factory ammo rather than leading the new shooter into reloading of single load, heavy bullets. But with the requirement to single load for slow fire, that became a moot point and non enforceable.

 

[Andy Legg]

Andy, I have been waiting to hear your opinion on this. You may have more experience than any other shooter on this forum with shooting at different venues and having dealt with different Match Directors attitudes and interpretations of the rules.

What are your suggestion for a unified NRA/ CMP rules for AR Tactical ? I always wondered about the scope magnification taping of the power to 15-16x. Is that a big deal?

Have you or you boys felt a desire to try Sling or F class or are you totally committed to AR Tac?

IMHO - The intent of this class, as previously stated, was to have a low barrier to entry equipment and cost wise, run what you brung class for new shooters and a way to keep older shooters on the line longer feeding in from both sling and F class shooters. I considered it a bit like the CMP Games matches with the vintage rifles all fired on the SR targets. Making Master or High Master in AR-Tac is like a Silver or Gold score in a games match. It does not take away from the accomplishment, but it does not correlate to making that score with a sling or on the F target.

Just guessing now, I think the use of a magazine requirement was intended to force the use of mag length ammo in this class to encourage use of factory ammo rather than leading the new shooter into reloading of single load, heavy bullets. But with the requirement to single load for slow fire, that became a moot point and non enforceable.

Jeff-

Personally, I don’t believe the Dialing Down of Magnification and Taping to be that big a deal. However, I have heard and understand the point made that with the Higher Magnification Scopes…. Some of them offer better Quality Glass and more Precise Adjustments. That said, I have seen folks shoot very well with Primary Arms, SWFA, Riton and Arken Scopes.

Regarding Unified Rules for NRA and CMP, they are currently close enough to allow for the use of one rifle by adjusting the rifle weight and by not having over a 16x scope.

Mag-Length Ammo is not a current concern for us at Mid-Range (our most utilized and accurate load is a 77 SMK loaded at COAL 2.260”)….but at the CMP Long Range Matches it is. We shoot 80 SMK’s and Hornady 75 ELD-M’s in the .223’s and 106 A-Tips in the .243 Win. all loaded at longer than Magazine Length.

My oldest son (Dylan) and myself have shot F-TR several times with a dedicated .308 FTR Rifle. I have also, shot FTR with an AR-Tac rifle due to not enough Shooters in either category (combined we had 4 competitors). Of note, an AT-Tac Rifle can typically shoot in FTR but not the other way around.

Also, my youngest son (Logan) has considered other competitions, but is currently having a ball shooting AR-Tac. He definitely learned some stuff at Camp Perry this year shooting the 75 grain ELD-M’s at 1000 yards from a 20” .223 AR.

I agree that making High-Master in AR-Tac is likely too easy. If I were to make a change, it would be to increase the required % to 99% for AR-Tac High Master.

I have also heard many times that AR-Tac should be shooting on F-Class targets… it really doesn’t matter to me as long as we all shoot the same targets. I have never seen a match where more than one person shot a 600. As a matter of fact at mid range, I have only personally witnessed two 600’s shot in AR-Tac.

You are very likely correct with the original intent of the NRA’s magazine rule…. However, in the grand scheme of things, especially allowing any caliber from .223 to .308 and also AR-10’s…. The 223’s are an absolute disadvantage in a lot of matches. I’ll recommend just leaving it alone. It would be just one more thing for MD’s to police….. the juice just isn’t worth the squeeze.

One of the biggest challenges for the class is it does attract a lot of new shooters to matches. I suggest at local matches we should be super flexible on enforcement of the class rules. Also as most ranges are welcoming, but we also must keep safety in mind as we get these new shooters up to speed.

 

[jelenko]

Is there an opportunity to create 'factory' and 'unlimited' classes within AR Tac? Then the newcomers/people who just want to shoot what they already have wouldn't have to compete with those who are pushing the boundaries.

 

[Andy Legg]

Is there an opportunity to create 'factory' and 'unlimited' classes within AR Tac? Then the newcomers/people who just want to shoot what they already have wouldn't have to compete with those who are pushing the boundaries.

This seems like a good idea, but at most local matches we struggle to get more than 3-4 shooters in AR-Tactical. At larger NRA Matches there will be Experts, Masters and High Masters…. The NRA does a good job of Recognizing the Highest in each Classification and also the Special Categories (High Senior, Junior, Woman etc…).

 

[Andy Legg]

For 600 yards personally I would replicate what the SR shooters use, which is typically 20".

At match yesterday I was speaking with one of the SR shooters and he was getting over 1,700 FPS at the 600 yard target using 80g Berger. That's getting pretty close to .308 FTR velocity

Thanks. Looked it up and you may be right.

I would recommend a 22” rifle for AR-Tac….. I think you will have lot’s of fun with it and you can still shoot in FTR if you like.

With the right rifle, you may be able to be competitive (FTR) within your classification at 300 & 600 yards.

Lots of Seniors and Juniors are shooting in AR-Tactical.

 

[Park ranger]

I’ve shoot off the sling for 30 years. I play AR Tac now because it’s fun. No need for a jacket, spotting scope, glove, etc. It sure is fun on hot days not to have to put on a jacket.

 

[jelenko]

It sure is fun on hot days not to have to put on a jacket.

Yeah. These days I try to find reduced distance matches that have RP/SP shot from covered line.

 

[Jon Leary]

JonL - thx for the info. I've never had a problem shooting 80gr SMKs or Bergers in my 8" twist barrels with 24.5gr of Varget.

My loads are too hot blew a primer last night in a match. Better drop down to 24.5

 

[AR Shooter]

But as mentioned earlier I would get 85.5 bergers you are good out to 1k yds. You will be a high master by the end of the shooting season

I'm thinking I'll get a 7" twist barrel (likely Bartlein) in order to shoot the 85.5 Bergers.

 

[AR Shooter]

My friend who never shot any rifle competition before is shooting good at over 70 years of age.

Anything is possible. I'm 78 before the end of the year and shot a personal best in a silhouette match two weeks ago. Never give up............

 

[Jon Leary]

At match yesterday I was speaking with one of the SR shooters and he was getting over 1,700 FPS at the 600 yard target using 80g Berger. That's getting pretty close to .308 FTR velocity

I wonder what load he is using?

 

[Andy Legg]

At match yesterday I was speaking with one of the SR shooters and he was getting over 1,700 FPS at the 600 yard target using 80g Berger. That's getting pretty close to .308 FTR velocity I wonder what load he is using?

I certainly believe it with the Berger’s. The 80 grain SMK load we use at Camp Perry Long Rang is running between 1700-1750 fps when used at 600 yards.

Our 80 grain SMK load uses LC Brass, 24.0 grains (24.5 grains @ cooler ambient temperatures) Shooters World Tactical Powder & CCI #400 Small Rifle Primers loaded at COAL of 2.435”. This load is NOT supersonic at 1000 yards but makes the trip nicely. We have used it in 18” 1/8 twist barrels out to 1000 yards. 16” 1/8 twist barrels out to 600 yards. Best performance so far has been out of a 20” 1/7 twist WOA barrel.

Caution this is a Double-Base powder that shoots really well for us, but it is temperature sensitive. If you’re not paying attention to the ambient temps…. Likely should not exceed 24.0 grains.

Also this is NOT a magazine length load ( I suspect the Berger load mentioned is not either).

Maybe i’ll give the Berger’s a try….

 

[jelenko]

I certainly believe it with the Berger’s. The 80 grain SMK load we use at Camp Perry Long Rang is running between 1700-1750 fps when used at 600 yards.

Our 80 grain SMK load uses LC Brass, 24.0 grains (24.5 grains @ cooler ambient temperatures) Shooters World Tactical Powder & CCI #400 Small Rifle Primers loaded at COAL of 2.435”. This load is NOT supersonic at 1000 yards but makes the trip nicely. We have used it in 18” 1/8 twist barrels out to 1000 yards. 16” 1/8 twist barrels out to 600 yards. Best performance so far has been out of a 20” 1/7 twist WOA barrel.

Caution this is a Double-Base powder that shoots really well for us, but it is temperature sensitive. If you’re not paying attention to the ambient temps…. Likely should not exceed 24.0 grains.

Also this is NOT a magazine length load ( I suspect the Berger load mentioned is not either).

Maybe i’ll give the Berger’s a try….

Nice X count!

 

[Andy Legg]

Nice X count!

I wish I could claim it. It was my oldest son Dylan (19 at the time) at the Oklahoma State Championship Matches back in 2022 during practice the day before the match.

 

[AR Shooter]

New upper being built. 22" Bartelien 7" twist barrel in 223R, Wylde chamber, target crown, side charging handle. Have the winter to develop a load. 85.5gr Bergers sound interesting...........