AR COMP & 308

[spclark]

To stay within the bounds of the thread title....

John I agree with everything you've stated so clearly. I meant no slight by contributing to a brief detour off-topic.

I need to work thru my current stock of N-140 (6HAGAR to 300 yards), RL15 (6HAGAR @ 600) and 8208XBR (6RAT @ all yardages to 600) before trying AR Comp. Heard great things about it so far, supposedly an improved RL-15.

Note - I'd originally written Varget which I've since learned is incorrect....

 

[jscandale]

I have no experience with Varget, but I do know that it is an excellent powder and lots of shooters enjoy real success with it. I am a dyed in the wool RL15 user and AR Comp seems to be a dynamite powder so far with the limited use that I have had with it so far. So far I can see that if I drop my AR Comp charge weight by 5% from the RL15 data, I still get a higher velocity without noticeable pressure signs. I don't know if that's due to faster burn rate or just an improved chemical mixture. Whichever it is, I certainly tip my hat to the chemical engineers behind it.

JS

 

[flatlander]

John, Russ, & Stephan -
As some of you may know, I've played with the HAGAR - had two uppers, and spent umpteen hours/days/weeks forming 1200pcs of brass for them. The real bummer was that the R-P brass didn't stand up to the hard use an AR15 dishes out, even though I didn't feel I was running particularly hot loads. That, and the Jamison brass - which took even more work (neck turning) to finish - developed cracks in the body after a couple of firings. No way was I going through all that work again. To top it off, I'd built an Eliseo R5 tubegun while waiting on the barrel for the HAGAR, and have pretty much given up on gas guns for XC. Be that as it may, I still have the original HAGAR upper, and as it has under 1700rds. through it, I'll be looking into buying another set of HAGAR dies if the Hornady brass becomes available.

I've had a few uppers in 6RAT, and though I sold my 28" Bartlein-barreled MR upper, have been playing with a 24" Krieger-barreled upper, as the club I shoot with runs DMR tactical matches, and allows shooters to use just about any cartridge. As I see it, the RAT has a slight advantage over the HAGAR at 300, since it's easy to seat 107-108gr bullets for mag feed for the rapids. In addition, I had issues with my 300yd HAGAR loads, using Berger 90s. Don't believe I ever tried the S95MK in the HAGAR, but as great as it shoots in the RAT, I probably should've. I was able to get about the same vel. (2840fps) with 105VLDs with RL15 in both the RAT & HAGAR, but felt the HAGAR had the edge on accuracy at that level. The big difference is the ease of fireforming RAT brass compared to the torture of forming & trimming 30 Rem into HAGAR cases, the fact that Lapua makes the AA brass we're using, and that it's got a small primer pocket.

I ran some P2000MR through the 24" Krieger last Sunday, and even though velocity was lower than I'd hoped for, accuracy with S95MKs was exceptional at 600. I was getting only 2626fps with 30.2grs of 2000MR, with moly'd 95s & Wolf SRM primers. I tried WSR & R 7-1/2 primers along with the Wolf, and all gave impressive ES & SD numbers, with 4 out of 5 strings giving single digit SDs (3,4,5,& 9).
There's room for more powder, so I'm waiting out the current snow storm in hopes of having time to chrono 30.5grs with the 95s before it's time to head for Hutch for the KSRA Midrange Prone Champs this weekend. If 2000MR doesn't work out, guess I'll have to get some AR COMP to try.

 

[liltank]

So how does the velocity of the WOA and Hagar compare to the 6xc and 243 Win? Sounds like the Hagar has some brass issues... or is it due to using it in an AR platform vs a bolt? I'm thinking my next 6mm will be an XC.

Tank

 

[jscandale]

Dennis,
Ditto on all of what you said. I've been through it all as well. I will say that the Hornady brass is very high quality from what I have tested so far. That is one of the reasons for the WOA Improved.

Tank,
The velocity is surprisingly good considering the smaller capacity compared to the .243. Carl Bernosky gets about 2900 from the Hagar. I have not pushed it that hard. I was using .30 Rem brass whis was designed for for a much lower pressure cartridge. I have not push too hard on the WOA Improved yet, but I would guess about 2850 without the arduous task of case forming and trimming.
As I said, the Hagar brass is on contract with a reputable company now and expect that it will be done. However, I am not holding my breath until it's delivered as I have been down this road before. That's why it's nice to have a cartridge that uses popular brass like the WOA, WOA IMP, Rat, and the 6 AR. I remain optimistic.

JS

 

[jscandale]

I think since this conversation got off the subject, I'll move the topic here:
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php/topic,3774787.new.html#new


JS

 

[flatlander]

John,
I'm interested in the .220 Thunderbolt - got into trouble with reamer chatter while chambering a Krieger AR15 bbl. in 223, and it looks like your 22/HAGAR might be the only viable alternative way to salvage this bbl. I've gone too deep with the 223 reamer to make a 22PDK out of it, and besides, I had pretty poor results with a PDK last year - don't want to go down that road again, even though I've got plenty of PDK brass & a Forster die set.

If Hornady will provide us with a run of their good brass - with small primer pockets - I'd jump at the chance to get my remaining 6 HAGAR upper out again, and also go with the Thunderbolt. Who made your reamer? Did you have to make your own FL sizer die?

 

[FroggyOne2]

I am wondering about this powder myself and how it would work say with the .223 and the 90VLD.

 

[jscandale]

John,
I'm interested in the .220 Thunderbolt - got into trouble with reamer chatter while chambering a Krieger AR15 bbl. in 223, and it looks like your 22/HAGAR might be the only viable alternative way to salvage this bbl. I've gone too deep with the 223 reamer to make a 22PDK out of it, and besides, I had pretty poor results with a PDK last year - don't want to go down that road again, even though I've got plenty of PDK brass & a Forster die set.

If Hornady will provide us with a run of their good brass - with small primer pockets - I'd jump at the chance to get my remaining 6 HAGAR upper out again, and also go with the Thunderbolt. Who made your reamer? Did you have to make your own FL sizer die?

Hi Dennis,
Just saw this post today...I think the .220 TB would be a good candidate for a bbl that already has a .223 chamber as the .22 PDK is too short. PTG made my reamer. I did have problems with the early Berger 90s blowing up and when I made the PDK, I went with a 7 twist poly bbl, but I understand that Berger fixed the thin jacket problem.
For the Tunderbolt, I also have a resize die and made my own dies.

JS

 

[jscandale]

Russ, Tank,

I sure am glad you guys turned me on to AR Comp. So far, its been pretty impressive for the cartridge I am playing with. Increased velocity with less powder. It seems to have a relationship with RL15 kind of like N540 has with N140. I would not hesitate to use both powders with different bullet weights for different yard lines.

JS

 

[Steve Blair]

This is a cartridge that John Holliger and I have been collaborating on for about 6 months. We are calling it the 6mm WOA Imp. The 6mm WOA is a 6.8 Spc necked down to 6mm, the improved version is nothing more than the standard Ackley improvement of pushing the shoulder forward and changing the shoulder angle to 40 degrees.

Ackley generally did not change shoulder positions, only reduced body tapers and shoulder angles. The definition of an improved cartridge is one that can fire unaltered factory ammunition and the improved case results. What you have done is create a wildcat cartridge. Wildcats require some case manipulation before they can be fired.

 

[jscandale]

This is a cartridge that John Holliger and I have been collaborating on for about 6 months. We are calling it the 6mm WOA Imp. The 6mm WOA is a 6.8 Spc necked down to 6mm, the improved version is nothing more than the standard Ackley improvement of pushing the shoulder forward and changing the shoulder angle to 40 degrees.

Ackley generally did not change shoulder positions, only reduced body tapers and shoulder angles. The definition of an improved cartridge is one that can fire unaltered factory ammunition and the improved case results. What you have done is create a wildcat cartridge. Wildcats require some case manipulation before they can be fired.

I guess that's right. The only brass manipulation that really has to be done with this cartridge is to take a 6.8 piece of factory brass and run it through a 6mm WOA Imp die, but. That's it. You cannot take a 6mm WOA (a wildcat of its own) and shoot it in a 6mm WOA Improved chamber.
I guess I misspoke when I said it was like an Ackley improved version.

When Ackley improved his cartridges, did the shoulder/neck juncture stay in the same spot?

Thanks,
JS

 

[terryperkins]

Could anybody tell more about AR Comp and the 308?

 

[Rtheurer]

I wonder if I can move my post to another thread and rename this one? Sorry Terry you didnt get any more info than my origonal post three pages ago.

Powder is still fairly new. So far Ive only seen Lil Tanks and mine for testing.
Russ T

 

[Steve Blair]

When Ackley improved his cartridges, did the shoulder/neck juncture stay in the same spot?

I am not an expert on Ackley cartridges. But, I believe that at least some of his cartridges moved the shoulder back a few thousandths to ensure a proper chamber fit when fireforming. Most of the reamer drawings I've seen seem to reflect that. A member named "Ackman" is knowledgeable on the subject. Maybe he will provide a better answer.

 

[jscandale]

Could anybody tell more about AR Comp and the 308?

Terry,
I have not loaded the .308 with the AR comp, but the loading characteristics of the .308 and the .223 are very close and from what I cen see from this powder so far, it seems to be a real winner. Like Russ said, start 5% below the listings for RL15 and you'll be good.

JS

 

[terryperkins]

Thanks very much JS.

 

[liltank]

Could anybody tell more about AR Comp and the 308?

I can tell you that it needs to be loaded closer to IMR4895 loads. This powders is considerable faster than RL15 and Varget. My max load with AR Comp is 43.0g. I currently load 42.8g. It seems to hold ES's and SD's very close. This is by far the best powder I have used in my .308 so far. The RL15 and Varget will probably give you better velocity, but when this gun started shooting the way it is with AR Comp... I'm not using anything else right now. I am currently using it with 168 NBT. I have not tried it yet with the heavier bullets yet.

Tank