Anyone using an AR platform for F-Class?

[people]

Cool that makes sense. I only shoot against my self. Also have zero plans of shooting in big NRA matches. Other than that it is just bragging rights it sounds like. I guess my hardest part is remembering what name I used at all the different ranges I have shot at.

 

[Erik Cortina]

If you want to load from a magazine, that's certainly your option, but it will be one round at a time meaning you need 20 magazines with one round loaded or putting a round in the same magazine for every shot, which is just about as stupid as one can get. Enter the Bobsled or the magazine cutoff things which never worked 100% for me.

I will point out that your ersatz format is a disservice to anyone following your made-up rules. Your shooters can never get NRA classification or shoot in any other venue and I thinks that's sad. As a soon-to-be-erstwhile match director, I put in extra effort so that our shooters met all the specifications and could get NRA classification legitimately. You would be surprised at how many came back to me to express their appreciation for us following the rules as they got their cards from the NRA. That was a big deal for me for the last several years.

Why would you want a NRA classification?

Why would you not?

If you plan to compete in larger NRA sanctioned events there are awards for winning your classification. It lest you compare your performance to people who have developed similar skills, and it gives a way of tracking your improvement.

Off the top of my head I think over the yrs I've won my classification (SS and EX) at at least two regionals.

At some events with enough shooters people are squadded (at least initially) by classification so you are shooting with the people you are competing against. Reality is that someone carrying a MK card isn't going to out shoot an EX very often. If you have no classification you shoot as a "Master (unclassified)"

It's also a bit of recognition for accomplishment. In F-TR getting to Expert shooting long range is a goal and it really does show that you have started to understand and can play the game with skill.

Personally, in Long Range, I worked from Marksman to Sharpshooter to Expert and have flirted with Master on a couple of occasions but have never strung together the scores to get there. (it takes 120 shots for record to reclassify). In F-TR there are (or at least were before PHX) several members of the US team that carried EX classifications. Getting a MA classification in F-TR is hard, and getting my Master classification shooting F-TR is a goal that I intend to reach.


Prior to this yr I never shot much mid range and when I did I usually used the matches as laod work for long range, but I've finally played mid range enough this past yr to get my HM card. It's nice to get that in the mail. I personally think is too easy to get at mid range shooting F-class, but it is what is is for now.

As for my personal opinions of the classification system, I personally think F-Class mid range HM should be at 99%, not the 98% or 98.5% or whatever it is today, and I think that Long Range HM is too difficult to achieve shooting F-TR. Not many people, even with great skill, will ever see conditions that will let them post 6 matches averaging 196 or better in a row with a 308 at 1000 yards. I think the only two people who have accomplished it on the 1MOA target with an F-TR Rifle are Danny Biggs, and if I read the scores correctly from PHX this yr, Jim Crofts. It should be hard to achieve, but there should be more than two.

XTR, it is not F-Class and F-T/R. The game is called F-Class and it has two categories, F-Open and F-T/R.

 

[chkunz]

If you want to load from a magazine, that's certainly your option, but it will be one round at a time meaning you need 20 magazines with one round loaded or putting a round in the same magazine for every shot, which is just about as stupid as one can get. Enter the Bobsled or the magazine cutoff things which never worked 100% for me.

I will point out that your ersatz format is a disservice to anyone following your made-up rules. Your shooters can never get NRA classification or shoot in any other venue and I thinks that's sad. As a soon-to-be-erstwhile match director, I put in extra effort so that our shooters met all the specifications and could get NRA classification legitimately. You would be surprised at how many came back to me to express their appreciation for us following the rules as they got their cards from the NRA. That was a big deal for me for the last several years.

Why would you want a NRA classification?

Why would you not?

If you plan to compete in larger NRA sanctioned events there are awards for winning your classification. It lest you compare your performance to people who have developed similar skills, and it gives a way of tracking your improvement.

Off the top of my head I think over the yrs I've won my classification (SS and EX) at at least two regionals.

At some events with enough shooters people are squadded (at least initially) by classification so you are shooting with the people you are competing against. Reality is that someone carrying a MK card isn't going to out shoot an EX very often. If you have no classification you shoot as a "Master (unclassified)"

It's also a bit of recognition for accomplishment. In F-TR getting to Expert shooting long range is a goal and it really does show that you have started to understand and can play the game with skill.

Personally, in Long Range, I worked from Marksman to Sharpshooter to Expert and have flirted with Master on a couple of occasions but have never strung together the scores to get there. (it takes 120 shots for record to reclassify). In F-TR there are (or at least were before PHX) several members of the US team that carried EX classifications. Getting a MA classification in F-TR is hard, and getting my Master classification shooting F-TR is a goal that I intend to reach.


Prior to this yr I never shot much mid range and when I did I usually used the matches as laod work for long range, but I've finally played mid range enough this past yr to get my HM card. It's nice to get that in the mail. I personally think is too easy to get at mid range shooting F-class, but it is what is is for now.

As for my personal opinions of the classification system, I personally think F-Class mid range HM should be at 99%, not the 98% or 98.5% or whatever it is today, and I think that Long Range HM is too difficult to achieve shooting F-TR. Not many people, even with great skill, will ever see conditions that will let them post 6 matches averaging 196 or better in a row with a 308 at 1000 yards. I think the only two people who have accomplished it on the 1MOA target with an F-TR Rifle are Danny Biggs, and if I read the scores correctly from PHX this yr, Jim Crofts. It should be hard to achieve, but there should be more than two.

XTR, it is not F-Class and F-T/R. The game is called F-Class and it has two categories, F-Open and F-T/R.

Erik, the point that XTR made is that the NRA rules also have classifications (marksman, sharpshooter, expert, master, high master) and that is an important point for the beginner in the sport to understand. The NRA classification system gives everyone an opportunity to compete on a level playing field. Otherwise it is just a few of the top shooters competing against each other and no incentive for others to play.

 

[Erik Cortina]

If you want to load from a magazine, that's certainly your option, but it will be one round at a time meaning you need 20 magazines with one round loaded or putting a round in the same magazine for every shot, which is just about as stupid as one can get. Enter the Bobsled or the magazine cutoff things which never worked 100% for me.

I will point out that your ersatz format is a disservice to anyone following your made-up rules. Your shooters can never get NRA classification or shoot in any other venue and I thinks that's sad. As a soon-to-be-erstwhile match director, I put in extra effort so that our shooters met all the specifications and could get NRA classification legitimately. You would be surprised at how many came back to me to express their appreciation for us following the rules as they got their cards from the NRA. That was a big deal for me for the last several years.

Why would you want a NRA classification?

Why would you not?

If you plan to compete in larger NRA sanctioned events there are awards for winning your classification. It lest you compare your performance to people who have developed similar skills, and it gives a way of tracking your improvement.

Off the top of my head I think over the yrs I've won my classification (SS and EX) at at least two regionals.

At some events with enough shooters people are squadded (at least initially) by classification so you are shooting with the people you are competing against. Reality is that someone carrying a MK card isn't going to out shoot an EX very often. If you have no classification you shoot as a "Master (unclassified)"

It's also a bit of recognition for accomplishment. In F-TR getting to Expert shooting long range is a goal and it really does show that you have started to understand and can play the game with skill.

Personally, in Long Range, I worked from Marksman to Sharpshooter to Expert and have flirted with Master on a couple of occasions but have never strung together the scores to get there. (it takes 120 shots for record to reclassify). In F-TR there are (or at least were before PHX) several members of the US team that carried EX classifications. Getting a MA classification in F-TR is hard, and getting my Master classification shooting F-TR is a goal that I intend to reach.


Prior to this yr I never shot much mid range and when I did I usually used the matches as laod work for long range, but I've finally played mid range enough this past yr to get my HM card. It's nice to get that in the mail. I personally think is too easy to get at mid range shooting F-class, but it is what is is for now.

As for my personal opinions of the classification system, I personally think F-Class mid range HM should be at 99%, not the 98% or 98.5% or whatever it is today, and I think that Long Range HM is too difficult to achieve shooting F-TR. Not many people, even with great skill, will ever see conditions that will let them post 6 matches averaging 196 or better in a row with a 308 at 1000 yards. I think the only two people who have accomplished it on the 1MOA target with an F-TR Rifle are Danny Biggs, and if I read the scores correctly from PHX this yr, Jim Crofts. It should be hard to achieve, but there should be more than two.

XTR, it is not F-Class and F-T/R. The game is called F-Class and it has two categories, F-Open and F-T/R.

Erik, the point that XTR made is that the NRA rules also have classifications (marksman, sharpshooter, expert, master, high master) and that is an important point for the beginner in the sport to understand. The NRA classification system gives everyone an opportunity to compete on a level playing field. Otherwise it is just a few of the top shooters competing against each other and no incentive for others to play.

I know the point he was making, but he kept referring to F-Open as "F-Class", so I pointed it out to him to avoid confusion.

But maybe he wasn't and I'm the one that is confused! ;D

I just read his post again four times and he may have been referring to F-Class in general as opposed to F-Open like I thought. Some people refer to F-Open as "F-Class" and I thought that was the case here, but now I'm not sure it is.

Ok, carry on.

 

[XTR]

Eric, you got it right in your second post.

I had to go back and re-read what I wrote to make sure I didn't write what you thought I did (is that clear? )

When I wrote F class I meant as a whole, when I meant F-TR I wrote F-TR.

"people", I also compete with myself, but like a lot of other things it's actually more fun with more than one. I can tell you from my experience it's more fun when you go into that last match of the weekend either up or down one or two to someone else and you're trying to win it. You can call it bragging rights, but I rarely keep score during practice, but I've yet to attend a match where they didn't.

 

[Road_Clam]

Do you ever see any AR platforms at F-class matches? I have a friend who thinks he wants to try F-class, but wants to build an AR in .308 to do it. Could it be done?

I have not yet embarked on F class competition, but I plan on it. However I do frequently shoot both a 24" barreled AR-15 Varmint, and a traditional R700 .308 Varmint bolt. While I do get amazing accuracy from my AR it's not really up to serious accuracy as compared to my bolt. You have to deal with a serious bullet jump with the AR type chamber and gas system. Even with a precise load shooting 69 gr SMK's the best I have shot thus far is about 3 moa @ 600 yards, which is great considering it's a basically box stock Bushmaster AR with the addition of accurizer inserts.

The 69 SMK is not the bullet for your AR at 600 yards. You will get much better results with the 80 SMK or even the 77 SMK.

I'm concerned about stability shooting the heavies. My AR Varmint barrel is a slowish 1-9" twist. I've tried some factory FGMM 77's and they shot ok, but not as accurate as my 69's .

 

[chkunz]

Do you ever see any AR platforms at F-class matches? I have a friend who thinks he wants to try F-class, but wants to build an AR in .308 to do it. Could it be done?

I have not yet embarked on F class competition, but I plan on it. However I do frequently shoot both a 24" barreled AR-15 Varmint, and a traditional R700 .308 Varmint bolt. While I do get amazing accuracy from my AR it's not really up to serious accuracy as compared to my bolt. You have to deal with a serious bullet jump with the AR type chamber and gas system. Even with a precise load shooting 69 gr SMK's the best I have shot thus far is about 3 moa @ 600 yards, which is great considering it's a basically box stock Bushmaster AR with the addition of accurizer inserts.

The 69 SMK is not the bullet for your AR at 600 yards. You will get much better results with the 80 SMK or even the 77 SMK.

I'm concerned about stability shooting the heavies. My AR Varmint barrel is a slowish 1-9" twist. I've tried some factory FGMM 77's and they shot ok, but not as accurate as my 69's .

The 1-9 is marginal but will probably still do better with the 80 grain Sierras at 600. The 69 SMK are very accurate at the short ranges but just not suitable for 600.

 

[people]

The 69gr SMK is better than an unstable bullet.

 

[Turbulent Turtle]

I'm concerned about stability shooting the heavies. My AR Varmint barrel is a slowish 1-9" twist. I've tried some factory FGMM 77's and they shot ok, but not as accurate as my 69's .

You are already handicapping yourself shooting a semi in a bolt action game. Having a 1:9 twisted barrel just makes it worse. It's like entering a car race with a pickup and then using a 4 cylinder instead of a V-8.

I have found the 69 gr bullets to be more precise than the 77 at shorter ranges, but neither can hold a candle to the 80grainers at 300 and out.

I you want to play with an AR in F-Class, 80gr bullets (or perhaps heavier) are the way to go.

 

[chkunz]

If you want to load from a magazine, that's certainly your option, but it will be one round at a time meaning you need 20 magazines with one round loaded or putting a round in the same magazine for every shot, which is just about as stupid as one can get. Enter the Bobsled or the magazine cutoff things which never worked 100% for me.

I will point out that your ersatz format is a disservice to anyone following your made-up rules. Your shooters can never get NRA classification or shoot in any other venue and I thinks that's sad. As a soon-to-be-erstwhile match director, I put in extra effort so that our shooters met all the specifications and could get NRA classification legitimately. You would be surprised at how many came back to me to express their appreciation for us following the rules as they got their cards from the NRA. That was a big deal for me for the last several years.

Why would you want a NRA classification?

Why would you not?

If you plan to compete in larger NRA sanctioned events there are awards for winning your classification. It lest you compare your performance to people who have developed similar skills, and it gives a way of tracking your improvement.

Off the top of my head I think over the yrs I've won my classification (SS and EX) at at least two regionals.

At some events with enough shooters people are squadded (at least initially) by classification so you are shooting with the people you are competing against. Reality is that someone carrying a MK card isn't going to out shoot an EX very often. If you have no classification you shoot as a "Master (unclassified)"

It's also a bit of recognition for accomplishment. In F-TR getting to Expert shooting long range is a goal and it really does show that you have started to understand and can play the game with skill.

Personally, in Long Range, I worked from Marksman to Sharpshooter to Expert and have flirted with Master on a couple of occasions but have never strung together the scores to get there. (it takes 120 shots for record to reclassify). In F-TR there are (or at least were before PHX) several members of the US team that carried EX classifications. Getting a MA classification in F-TR is hard, and getting my Master classification shooting F-TR is a goal that I intend to reach.


Prior to this yr I never shot much mid range and when I did I usually used the matches as laod work for long range, but I've finally played mid range enough this past yr to get my HM card. It's nice to get that in the mail. I personally think is too easy to get at mid range shooting F-class, but it is what is is for now.

As for my personal opinions of the classification system, I personally think F-Class mid range HM should be at 99%, not the 98% or 98.5% or whatever it is today, and I think that Long Range HM is too difficult to achieve shooting F-TR. Not many people, even with great skill, will ever see conditions that will let them post 6 matches averaging 196 or better in a row with a 308 at 1000 yards. I think the only two people who have accomplished it on the 1MOA target with an F-TR Rifle are Danny Biggs, and if I read the scores correctly from PHX this yr, Jim Crofts. It should be hard to achieve, but there should be more than two.

XTR, it is not F-Class and F-T/R. The game is called F-Class and it has two categories, F-Open and F-T/R.

Erik, the point that XTR made is that the NRA rules also have classifications (marksman, sharpshooter, expert, master, high master) and that is an important point for the beginner in the sport to understand. The NRA classification system gives everyone an opportunity to compete on a level playing field. Otherwise it is just a few of the top shooters competing against each other and no incentive for others to play.

I know the point he was making, but he kept referring to F-Open as "F-Class", so I pointed it out to him to avoid confusion.

But maybe he wasn't and I'm the one that is confused! ;D

I just read his post again four times and he may have been referring to F-Class in general as opposed to F-Open like I thought. Some people refer to F-Open as "F-Class" and I thought that was the case here, but now I'm not sure it is.

Ok, carry on.

Erik, In the rule book, the major heading is F-Class; F-Open and F-TR are sub headings under F-Class. This brings up another thought. I see a lot of comments and questions and answers (some incorrect) that actually pertain to the rules and there seems to be lack of knowledge as to the rules. This is understandable since F-Class is a relatively new sport with a lot of new folks, many of which do not have previous experience in the shooting sports. I think it would be helpful to start a new thread on F-Class rules and move the discussion on rules to that thread. I will give it a try. Thanks for all that you do for the sport. Clyde

 

[Road_Clam]

I'm concerned about stability shooting the heavies. My AR Varmint barrel is a slowish 1-9" twist. I've tried some factory FGMM 77's and they shot ok, but not as accurate as my 69's .

You are already handicapping yourself shooting a semi in a bolt action game. Having a 1:9 twisted barrel just makes it worse. It's like entering a car race with a pickup and then using a 4 cylinder instead of a V-8.

I have found the 69 gr bullets to be more precise than the 77 at shorter ranges, but neither can hold a candle to the 80grainers at 300 and out.

I you want to play with an AR in F-Class, 80gr bullets (or perhaps heavier) are the way to go.

Gentlemen,
We're getting a bit o/t to the o/p's original question. Just to clarify, I have no intentions of using my AR type platform for when I embark into F class, I have a much more capable R700 .308 heavy varmint bolt if and when I do decide i'm ready for F Class, and furthermore when I do decide i'm ready it will be simply at the club level competitions. I simply expressed a comparitive opinion that my 24" bbl AR rifle CAN be shot out to 600 yds with decent accuracy.