Any match winners crimping bullets?
- Thread starter Bart B.
- Start date
Honestly,I doubt anyone crimps in benchrest,there isnt a need.
I believe you need a crimping groove on the bullet to crimp it. The last bullets I bought with a crimping groove was about 1975, 7mm.Hornady 150 grain. I have never seen a 22 or 6mm bullet with a crimping groove. I don't think it's possible to crimp without a crimping groove, you don't want to distort the bullet shape and it doesn't make sense to crimp on the ogive. If you don't have crimping groove you are forcing the neck into the bullet. If you have a crimping groove and use it you cannot vary overall cartridge length. The crimping groove is always on the bearing surface. I don't know what you are trying to accomplish that no-one else is doing. Competitive shooters tinker with neck tension nobody crimps. I don't think anyone shoots crimped bullets in competition unless it's rounds made for military rifles. I just quickly flipped through the Berger and Sierra reloading manuals. I don't see a single bullet with a crimping groove. A good BR rifle for about $5000 and shooting skill will get you under 0.200" groups without crimping. None of the custom bullet makers for BR guns have crimping Grooves.
bigedp51
When shooting Zombie Benchrest with a AR15 the correct bullet and taper crimp is required.
As you can see above the Zmax Zombie bullet has a crimping groove and a slime green tip, if the ammo is not crimped the bullet can and will move during chambering.
As you can see below scoring in 100 yard Zombie Benchrest is difficult and only head shots count.
The only downside to Zombie Benchrest shooting is you must use a rifle that throws perfectly good brass away and then fight with the other shooters to keep your own brass.
And remember real men use small base dies and taper crimp their ammo.
Let us know the name of the website where you have the crimping bet going on and how you make out now that the real truth is known about crimping. :
As you can see above the Zmax Zombie bullet has a crimping groove and a slime green tip, if the ammo is not crimped the bullet can and will move during chambering.
As you can see below scoring in 100 yard Zombie Benchrest is difficult and only head shots count.
The only downside to Zombie Benchrest shooting is you must use a rifle that throws perfectly good brass away and then fight with the other shooters to keep your own brass.
And remember real men use small base dies and taper crimp their ammo.
Let us know the name of the website where you have the crimping bet going on and how you make out now that the real truth is known about crimping. :
I don't consider rifles like the one in the picture as worth owning. They are expensive, usually not very accurate and not legal for hunting if they are semi auto. The only reason you crimp the bullets is because it's a semi auto, not because it makes the rifle more accurate. Let me know if you can shoot quarter inch groups at 100 yards. Is the rifle only used to shoot at zombies and beer cans. I don't think Zombie bullets are used by anyone interested in accuracy. You probably have over $1500 into the rifle I doubt it's accurate.
bigedp51
Bart B. said:
Bart B.
My Zombie benchrest posting was meant as humor and you won't find anyone who pays over $90.00 for Lupua brass crimping their match grade bullets.
You will also find people here without a sense of humor and that are gullible enough to think someone would use a AR15 carbine and a scope with a three inch red dot for benchrest shooting.
From Sierra Exterior Ballistics.
Reloading for Semi-Autos and Service Rifles
Neck Tension
Measuring the rounds before chambering and then re-measuring after they were carefully extracted resulted in an average increase of three thousandths (0.003") of forward bullet movement. Some individual rounds showed up to seven thousandths (0.007") movement. Please bear in mind that these results were with factory ammunition, normally having a higher bullet pull than handloaded ammunition.
To counteract this tendency, the semi-auto shooter is left with basically two options: applying a crimp or increasing neck tension. The first option, crimping, brings up some other issues that can be troublesome. In general, crimping degrades accuracy.
Most match bullets are not cannelured (which also seriously damages accuracy potential), a requirement for correct application of most crimps. Still, there are taper crimp dies available from most of the major manufacturers. Lee offers their “Factory Crimp†die as an alternative, which seems to be one of the better options for those bullets without a cannelure. That having been said, crimping is still, at best, an occasionally necessary evil. Avoid it if at all possible.
http://www.exteriorballistics.com/reloadbasics/gasgunreload.cfm
In closing, there is a wealth of information in the front of reloading manuals on reloading methods that all reloaders should read.
For this forum I would also recommend the follow reading material for "SOME" of the posters here.
bigedp51....You da man! I got a kick out of your post! Good stuff right there!...LOL ;D
bigedp51
pacificman said:
I'm retired and up to two years ago I did not own a single semiautomatic firearm, again I DID NOT have a single firearm that threw perfectly good brass away. My sons thought that dad should come out of the dark ages and sell some of his "ancient" milsurp rifle collection and "get modern".
Below is a AR15 A2 HBAR target rifle suitable for entry level service rifle competition. I traded some Mosin Nagants for it and paid out a whopping $10.58 cash for it. My Target quality ammunition is "NOT" crimped, BUT my end of the world, SHTF, Zombie ammunition is crimped.
The photo of the carbine I posted came from Google images, BUT I have a carbine similar to it that was a Christmas gift from my wife and sons. All my .223/5.56 brass comes courtesy of my neighbors son who is on the local Police SWAT team.
In closing I have never been able to spend $1500 on any firearm in the 38 years I have been married.
But I do have a sense of humor and that costs nothing.
I crimp mine for my 200-300yd ammo for my highpower guns, both AR, m1a, garand, space gun, etc with a lee factory crimp die. I do not crimp them for my 600yd ammo or for my palma gun. The only reason I crimp is the LFC basicaly sizes the whole case, I use it as a safeguard to ensure chambering during rapid fire stages. Many of my fellow competitiors do not. I am Distinguished, classified as a master but often shoot high master.
To the fellow that thinks that the ar15 is not accurate, and not practical, tell me, how practical is having a 20lb single shot rifle that you have to handload for to get those 1/4" groups? My service guns and especially my space guns are all 1/2 moa rifles, will shoot that all day, and do it in semi auto. The fact is that the ar15, because of its design, is probably the most accurate semi auto there is. Free float barrel, no moving gas system parts.
To the fellow that thinks that the ar15 is not accurate, and not practical, tell me, how practical is having a 20lb single shot rifle that you have to handload for to get those 1/4" groups? My service guns and especially my space guns are all 1/2 moa rifles, will shoot that all day, and do it in semi auto. The fact is that the ar15, because of its design, is probably the most accurate semi auto there is. Free float barrel, no moving gas system parts.
Sorry if I don't have a sense of humor. I thought the guy was serious because of the pix of the rifle, bullets, dies & targets. My rifle doesn't weigh 20 pounds. It's a Rem 700 BDL varmint model with a 26" 6BR Norma Kreiger barrel on it and a Unertl 15X Ultra Varmint scope. I bought the scope in 1978 for a little over $100. I bought the rifle in 1972 for about $120. I had it glass bedded about 1978 for $35 by Nelson Berger, Walt's brother. It weighs about 12.5 pounds with bipod & scope. I don't use wind flags. All of my groups with a good load at 100 yrds. are under 1/4" vertical. I love it for a GH rifle.
I have always thought that you needed a bolt action rifle for accuracy work. I understand that gas guns are now being used in position type shooting. I always assumed that serious gas guns had huge amounts of money in them? A serious bench rifle for 100-200 yards can cost around $5-6K with a scope. A Night Force scope can cost around $2200 plus tax. If you go to your local shooter supply and buy an off the shelf AR what kind of groups could you expect? How much does it cost to put together a serious competition AR gas gun with a high end scope?
I have always thought that you needed a bolt action rifle for accuracy work. I understand that gas guns are now being used in position type shooting. I always assumed that serious gas guns had huge amounts of money in them? A serious bench rifle for 100-200 yards can cost around $5-6K with a scope. A Night Force scope can cost around $2200 plus tax. If you go to your local shooter supply and buy an off the shelf AR what kind of groups could you expect? How much does it cost to put together a serious competition AR gas gun with a high end scope?
stool
not much...in my opinion it is the reason they are not allowed in ibs nor nrbsa.
upper and lower reciever with a bolt and carrier( prior to yo'mommas election) about $325...alot less than a br action.
change the bbl yourself no gunsmith costs
install a trigger yourself..no gunsmith costs.
today..125 for bolt and carrier, 150 for lower, 100-125 for upper, 350 for bbl blank, 150-200 to chamber, maybe 100 for a flat fore arm plate, jewell trigger 200, scope 325 to 500 for a weaver or a used bdr 36x
1200 for a complete rifle and add a scope
i have several br ar's
the small group from my ar10 with a krieger 1/15 twist is 0.116....led by a 0.157...so no fluke.
my ar15 with a hart 1/14 twist does right 0.2.......
luepold 36x brd's on the bunch
custom 3" flat fore arms(float tube mod)
to make it legal you have to turn off the gas system and no mag.......
while i have not won any matches i have beat dedicated br bolt guns.
it can be done and cheaper than a bolt gun.
let the flaming begin
upper and lower reciever with a bolt and carrier( prior to yo'mommas election) about $325...alot less than a br action.
change the bbl yourself no gunsmith costs
install a trigger yourself..no gunsmith costs.
today..125 for bolt and carrier, 150 for lower, 100-125 for upper, 350 for bbl blank, 150-200 to chamber, maybe 100 for a flat fore arm plate, jewell trigger 200, scope 325 to 500 for a weaver or a used bdr 36x
1200 for a complete rifle and add a scope
i have several br ar's
the small group from my ar10 with a krieger 1/15 twist is 0.116....led by a 0.157...so no fluke.
my ar15 with a hart 1/14 twist does right 0.2.......
luepold 36x brd's on the bunch
custom 3" flat fore arms(float tube mod)
to make it legal you have to turn off the gas system and no mag.......
while i have not won any matches i have beat dedicated br bolt guns.
it can be done and cheaper than a bolt gun.
let the flaming begin
Webster said:
Thats the great thing about ar's today, you can by an off the shelf rifle and it is capable of winning Camp Perry, its up to you. A RRA NM service rifle is about 1K$ new and the only upgrades you can do to it is no have the rear sights pinned or replace the trigger with a geiselle, but none is required. My space gun started out as a RRA varminter with a 24" bull barrel. I milled the handguard to accept anschutz type rails, slapped on a set of rpa sights, which almost cost as much as the gun when it was all said and done, and shot it. To date the only other modification was to replace the stock with a skeleton type stock in order to correct a position issue with the high sights. I probably paid 1k for the gun, then about 700 for the sights, and 200 for the stock.Webster said:
Thats what I like about highpower, you cant buy your way into the x ring, you gotta perform.
stool said:
Actually, the IBS had a separate AR class for a couple years ending in 2012......in those years I shot against a total of ONE (1) AR.....he gave up due to poor scores.....even compared to the Factory Class (basically off the shelf production rifles). The chance was there for the bragging rights....BUT the silence from all those bughole grouping AR's was deafening.
You can get a used competitive BR rifle for under $2K, a used Weaver 36x ($300, a solid front rest and rear bag,,,,and all you got to do is read flags well ( YEAH they mean THAT much) , be able to READ mirage, know how to tune your load, and have perfect bench form on EVERY shot and you'll win, place, or show.
Do not forget ....you are shooting for an aggregate....5 record targets for 5 matches that lasts the better part of a day.
I don't crimp my target shooting ammo. I think this is a good question that often comes up. The idea of doing anything to the cartridge is will it make me score better? Well, if you load 20 with a crimp, and 20 without and shoot better with a crimp, then crimp.
I doubt crimping helps accuracy in general, because of bullet deformation.
However, for ultimate accuracy, you need consistent neck tension. Will the crimp make the neck tension more consistent? Is it possible to crimp the neck and not deform the bullet too much? Only way to find out it, is to experiment.
I doubt crimping helps accuracy in general, because of bullet deformation.
However, for ultimate accuracy, you need consistent neck tension. Will the crimp make the neck tension more consistent? Is it possible to crimp the neck and not deform the bullet too much? Only way to find out it, is to experiment.
stool
did you miss the part where i said i do shoot ar br rifles.
i shoot against bolt guns at my club...yes club br...not registered br matches...yet
i was in on the rule making for the ar class.
the rules were DESIGNED for the class to fail, which it did. it was a club only level for one year.
while bolt guns could do anything with their ejected brass, ar's had to KEEP THEM ON THEIR BENCH.
several other dumb rules that were restictive to the gun design
you can still build an ar that is competitive cheaper than a used br bolt gun.
but they hate to see them comming.
i have been working too much the last few year, but went semi retired this year, i will have my ar's back out.
i shoot against bolt guns at my club...yes club br...not registered br matches...yet
i was in on the rule making for the ar class.
the rules were DESIGNED for the class to fail, which it did. it was a club only level for one year.
while bolt guns could do anything with their ejected brass, ar's had to KEEP THEM ON THEIR BENCH.
several other dumb rules that were restictive to the gun design
you can still build an ar that is competitive cheaper than a used br bolt gun.
but they hate to see them comming.
i have been working too much the last few year, but went semi retired this year, i will have my ar's back out.
LHSmith said:
Seriously, you can't afford a brass catcher? Let's see how well you shoot if I chuck brass at you while your firing. There are reasons for rules. Fact is, ONE (1) brave soul at least had the desire to try it. You apparently lacked the confidence to compete against bolt guns. ...and it was in effect longer than 1 year.
You have been here before under another name....and now I believe I know who..... argumentive, recently retired from sales in firearm industry, disdain for IBS and NBRSA, hosts club shoots.... but the real give away: "I was in on the rule making for the AR class.....it was designed for the class to fail" exact words you wrote on BRC some months ago when we had this same conversation.
You have been here before under another name....and now I believe I know who..... argumentive, recently retired from sales in firearm industry, disdain for IBS and NBRSA, hosts club shoots.... but the real give away: "I was in on the rule making for the AR class.....it was designed for the class to fail" exact words you wrote on BRC some months ago when we had this same conversation.
stool
the issue was.....the brass cannot leave your bench....no similar rule for bolt guns..
brass ejection can be controlled on an ar to not land on a competitors bench.......
just like bolt gun shooters , when you shoot an ar in br you single load....a brass catcher would prevent that....
again you do not read well...i do compete against bolt guns with my ar's
brass ejection can be controlled on an ar to not land on a competitors bench.......
just like bolt gun shooters , when you shoot an ar in br you single load....a brass catcher would prevent that....
again you do not read well...i do compete against bolt guns with my ar's
LHSmith said:
Nonsense, ever hear of a Billy towel?......most shooters who have an ejector equipped rifle have some means to control the travel of their spent rounds. I use a piece of coroplast several inches tall ,covered in a towel to contain my brass.....some even actually use a kitty box (a plush sleeping box of soft fabric for a cat bed).
It is not rocket science to devise a way to control your brass.
Many IBS clubs go out of our way to accomodate new shooters.....to the point of allowing a Ruger 10/22 (rimfire) to compete along side us even though the brass ejection was distracting.....the members persevered through it in the hopes of introducing a new shooter to precision shooting.
It is not rocket science to devise a way to control your brass.
Many IBS clubs go out of our way to accomodate new shooters.....to the point of allowing a Ruger 10/22 (rimfire) to compete along side us even though the brass ejection was distracting.....the members persevered through it in the hopes of introducing a new shooter to precision shooting.
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