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Any love for fixed scopes?

For hunting only one of my rifles still wears a fixed power scope, a Weaver K-1.5x, more than enough for the job the weapon is intended for still hunting deer in the deep woods.
E8VvYt.jpg


All the rest of my hunting rifles (coyote hunting) wear 1-4, 1.5-6, 2-12 and 2.5-10 scopes. I find having less than a 40' FOV on the bottom end very claustrophobic. Even then the 2-12's and 2.5-10's are open country rifles.
 
I'm no optical engineer, but I have a theory that fixed power target scopes typically have a greater depth of field than the usually shorter variable power counterparts.

Here's an example


My thoughts on this are that longer scopes have softer refraction angles than shorter scopes do. This I suspect provides a greater depth of field and allows the user to better read mirage. (Similar to the objective reduction inserts people sometimes use.)

Certainly magnification comes into play somewhere as guys often recommend dialing down magnification in heavy mirage. I do not believe this addresses the root problem being the length of the scope itself. Just the realities of optical mechanics.

I suppose its not really that fixed power scopes are always longer than variable power, but the target scope variety typically are, especially with the latest trend by marketing people that shorter is somehow better. (Spoiler alert... shorter is optically not better.) There are other thoughts as well that fixed power scopes are more precise since there are fewer moving parts.... Not sure if that remains true today, maybe just something said about scopes from back in the day.

I have found that fast focus ocular lenses can be the death of accuracy. Try testing yours... Aim it at something and without moving the rifle, wiggle your fast focus housing... If the reticle moves in this test, it's probably moving from shot to shot. I'll take the old lock ring style any day over fast focus.
I missed this post when it first appeared. Work has been a bear for quite a while now, and I do get the chance to come visit here as often as I want. That and the title was a little broad.

There is no reason why a fixed power target scope would inherently have a greater dept of field compared to a variable scope. But you astutely added another qualifier in your comparison, and that qualifier is "shorter." Therein lies the rub.

As we all know, a riflescope's magnification is the result of the focal length of the objective lens, divided by focal length of the eyepiece, and then multiplied by the erector lens assembly's magnification. Now all riflescopes have these three parts: objective lens assembly, eyepiece assembly and erector lens assembly. The difference between a fixed power and a variable will be found in the erector lens assembly. That's the piece you twist when you turn the zoom ring.

The objective lens assembly is that part starting from the big lenses in front to where it focuses the image on the first focal plane, at the front of the erector tube. This location will usually be found near or at the adjustment knobs. This picture, at the first focal plane, is where the depth of field of the image is determined and shows up.

In order to determine the depth of field, you have to know several things.
1- Distance to object on which we focus.
2- Focal length of the objective lens assembly.
3- Aperture size of the objective lens assembly.
4- Size of the Circle of Confusion (CoC).

Armed with those data, you can go to an on-line DOF calculator and figure out the DOF and hyperfocal distance of the riflescope.

1- Let's say Distance is 100 yards (300 feet.)

Sope manufacturers do not publish the focal length of their various offerings those are company secrets. But we can "approximate" these values, especially if we're just trying to compare riflescopes. If you measure the distance between the middle of the knobs to about a half inch from the end of the objective lens for the scopes you are trying to compare, you should get a focal length that can be used for this.

2- Measure in a line parallel to the main tube, not angled down. So let's say on your big long fixed target scope you get something like 200mm. Then on your short variable, you get 150mm. You now have the data points for #2.

3- Next up, aperture size, or f-number, or f-stop. Again, that's not something that manufacturers reveal, but we can figure it out using the focal length we just got in 2- and the published size of the objective lens. Let's use 50mm for the objective lens for both riflescopes. So for the fixed power, the f-number will be 200/50 or f/4. For the variable the f-number will be 150/50 or f/3.

The image with its depth of field will be formed on the FFP of each scope, using those first 3 values. Here are some rules.

- The further the focus point is, the greater the depth of field.
- The higher the magnification (focal length) the shallower the depth of field.
- The smaller the f-number, the greater the depth of field.

So if we keep the focus point the same, we can see that the fixed power scope has a longer focal length (200mm) but a smaller f-number (f/4). So the question becomes, is the DOF of the F-P (200mm, f/4) shallower or deeper than the DOF of the V-P (150, f/3)?

That's the optical equation, but there is one more item that determines the actual DOF, and that's the mysterious Circle of Confusion (CoC) that I mentioned at the top. Essentially the CoC is the value at which you deem the object to be in focus, or not in focus. It's somewhat subjective, but it is something quite important to get right. I'll have more to say about that later, but for now, let's just pick a size that is very common, .020mm.

Alright, off to the DOF calculator with those values: 300 feet, CoC .020, F-P (200, f/4), V-P (150,f/3).

I use this calculator:

Plugging in the value above we get:

F-P: Near limit 254ft, far limit 367ft for a total DOF of 113 ft.
V-P: Near limit 244ft, far limit 389ft for a total DOF of 145 ft. (I used f/2.8 as the calculator did not have f/3. Using f/3.2 made it even larger.

So, that seems to indicate that in this case, the F-P does not have a deeper DOF than the V-P. But wait, there's more.

We have to account for the magnification if we want to compare like for like. Since the focal length of the objective of the V-P is shorter than the one for the F-P, we probably have to increase the magnification on the V-P to get to the same magnification as the F-P. This is where the CoC comes into play. We calculated the DOF values using the same CoC for both scope, essentially the same quality. But when we increase the magnification on the V-P to match the one in the F-P, we have to take into account that we should be using the same equivalent CoC, and that means that we need to reduce the CoC for the V-P at let's say 1.3X to match the .020 CoC of the F-P at the same magnification. So the CoC value for the V-P calculation should be .020/1.3 or 0.15.

Quick, back to the DOF calculator with that CoC for the V-P. Near limit 255, far limit 362, total DOF 106ft.

Now this is all based on guesses about the actual focal length of the objective lens assembly. But it would seem to me that, at equivalent magnification, a short variable with a large objective lens will have a shallower DOF compared to a longer F-P scope with the same size objective lens.

It's important to keep as many things as possible the same, magnification, objective lens size, to be able to reach some measure of conclusion.

Anyway, this was all stream of consciousness, it's entirely possible I got one or more items wrong.
 
When i was a kid (14 or 15 maybe, in the mid 90s) I saved money from odd jobs and pop cans and bought a rem 700 with a varmint barrel and laminated stock, didn’t have money for a scope, so I borrowed my dads old scope off his deer rifle, a 50s or 60s vintage weaver fixed 6 power with a fine crosshair. Certainly not what I wanted, but it was clear enough for what i was doing with it and I came to appreciate the fine crosshair and later missed it when I “upgraded” it tracked perfectly and held zero. Shot alot of my personal best groups with rhat scope and rifle, and learned alot shooting it.

Got my first K6 in '66. The FCX are perfect for me. I, too, have shot many teeny groups with it, and with the other 2 I got. They are solid, and hold zero perfectly reliable. N
 
I own a number of fixed power scopes and they work fine for me, when it's all said and done I'll take a fixed power over a variable scope on my varmint rigs.
 
I missed this post when it first appeared. Work has been a bear for quite a while now, and I do get the chance to come visit here as often as I want. That and the title was a little broad.

There is no reason why a fixed power target scope would inherently have a greater dept of field compared to a variable scope. But you astutely added another qualifier in your comparison, and that qualifier is "shorter." Therein lies the rub.

As we all know, a riflescope's magnification is the result of the focal length of the objective lens, divided by focal length of the eyepiece, and then multiplied by the erector lens assembly's magnification. Now all riflescopes have these three parts: objective lens assembly, eyepiece assembly and erector lens assembly. The difference between a fixed power and a variable will be found in the erector lens assembly. That's the piece you twist when you turn the zoom ring.

The objective lens assembly is that part starting from the big lenses in front to where it focuses the image on the first focal plane, at the front of the erector tube. This location will usually be found near or at the adjustment knobs. This picture, at the first focal plane, is where the depth of field of the image is determined and shows up.

In order to determine the depth of field, you have to know several things.
1- Distance to object on which we focus.
2- Focal length of the objective lens assembly.
3- Aperture size of the objective lens assembly.
4- Size of the Circle of Confusion (CoC).

Armed with those data, you can go to an on-line DOF calculator and figure out the DOF and hyperfocal distance of the riflescope.

1- Let's say Distance is 100 yards (300 feet.)

Sope manufacturers do not publish the focal length of their various offerings those are company secrets. But we can "approximate" these values, especially if we're just trying to compare riflescopes. If you measure the distance between the middle of the knobs to about a half inch from the end of the objective lens for the scopes you are trying to compare, you should get a focal length that can be used for this.

2- Measure in a line parallel to the main tube, not angled down. So let's say on your big long fixed target scope you get something like 200mm. Then on your short variable, you get 150mm. You now have the data points for #2.

3- Next up, aperture size, or f-number, or f-stop. Again, that's not something that manufacturers reveal, but we can figure it out using the focal length we just got in 2- and the published size of the objective lens. Let's use 50mm for the objective lens for both riflescopes. So for the fixed power, the f-number will be 200/50 or f/4. For the variable the f-number will be 150/50 or f/3.

The image with its depth of field will be formed on the FFP of each scope, using those first 3 values. Here are some rules.

- The further the focus point is, the greater the depth of field.
- The higher the magnification (focal length) the shallower the depth of field.
- The smaller the f-number, the greater the depth of field.

So if we keep the focus point the same, we can see that the fixed power scope has a longer focal length (200mm) but a smaller f-number (f/4). So the question becomes, is the DOF of the F-P (200mm, f/4) shallower or deeper than the DOF of the V-P (150, f/3)?

That's the optical equation, but there is one more item that determines the actual DOF, and that's the mysterious Circle of Confusion (CoC) that I mentioned at the top. Essentially the CoC is the value at which you deem the object to be in focus, or not in focus. It's somewhat subjective, but it is something quite important to get right. I'll have more to say about that later, but for now, let's just pick a size that is very common, .020mm.

Alright, off to the DOF calculator with those values: 300 feet, CoC .020, F-P (200, f/4), V-P (150,f/3).

I use this calculator:

Plugging in the value above we get:

F-P: Near limit 254ft, far limit 367ft for a total DOF of 113 ft.
V-P: Near limit 244ft, far limit 389ft for a total DOF of 145 ft. (I used f/2.8 as the calculator did not have f/3. Using f/3.2 made it even larger.

So, that seems to indicate that in this case, the F-P does not have a deeper DOF than the V-P. But wait, there's more.

We have to account for the magnification if we want to compare like for like. Since the focal length of the objective of the V-P is shorter than the one for the F-P, we probably have to increase the magnification on the V-P to get to the same magnification as the F-P. This is where the CoC comes into play. We calculated the DOF values using the same CoC for both scope, essentially the same quality. But when we increase the magnification on the V-P to match the one in the F-P, we have to take into account that we should be using the same equivalent CoC, and that means that we need to reduce the CoC for the V-P at let's say 1.3X to match the .020 CoC of the F-P at the same magnification. So the CoC value for the V-P calculation should be .020/1.3 or 0.15.

Quick, back to the DOF calculator with that CoC for the V-P. Near limit 255, far limit 362, total DOF 106ft.

Now this is all based on guesses about the actual focal length of the objective lens assembly. But it would seem to me that, at equivalent magnification, a short variable with a large objective lens will have a shallower DOF compared to a longer F-P scope with the same size objective lens.

It's important to keep as many things as possible the same, magnification, objective lens size, to be able to reach some measure of conclusion.

Anyway, this was all stream of consciousness, it's entirely possible I got one or more items wrong.
I've learned a lot from this. But I still have questions. I have a Sightron SIII 10-50x60 scope. My focal length is about 280mm, so f-number is about 4.8. Depth of field at 55 yards is about 20 feet assuming COC of 0.020. This seems about right when I try to estimate distances of targets at that far a distance when using 16x mag on my scope.
But:
- I have to use 16x mag for airgun field target shooting. We rangefind with our scope's focus/parallax knob. At 16x mag, I can't focus as tightly on a target at 55 yards to determine its range as I can if I increase the mag power. It seems like the DOF has changed. At 50x, I can range find within a few feet of the actual target that is 55 yards away.
- Why did you use COC=0.020? is there any way to think about what that means?
- Some shooters talk about how the image "snaps into focus" with some scopes. Is that related to glass quality differences among scopes? But even with high quality glass, it sounds like you can't overcome the DOF range that the calculator gives. Right? Maybe a higher quality glass can discern a smaller COC?
Regards.
 
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1. Actual manufacturer not known but a good modern variable configuration:

1675003485610.png

2. March 40x, 50x and 60x52mm Benchrest early versions (may be similar to the current 48x52mm HM):

1675003762200.png

Something to think about just counting the relative number of lens elements and moving parts along the optical path!

This is why I'm dedicated to fixed scopes for target shooting where the primary requirement is holding POA (and have been for 63 years).
 
Yes, absolutely yes, I'm a fan. But let me qualify, I'm a dinosaur from another age where hunting skills and marksmanship meant something rather than an equipment race in attempt to make up poor field skills. ;)

Give me a 4X or 6x for deer hunting and a 12x for varmint and predator hunting and I'd be happy. A simple plex reticle will be fine, but not one of those real thin ones that's difficult to see in dim light or heavy cover. I don't need "Christmas Tree" reticles either. I set up for maximum point-blank range which is within my skills shooting in the field off a shooting cross stick.

I've been hunting deer, varmints and predators for over 50 years now and I've never changed the power on my variable scopes. Once identified as a critter with binoculars, I've never had trouble locating a ground hog, fox or coyote with the scope set on 12 or 16X depending on the max. power setting for that scope. Truth is, I really don't need a variable. So why did I buy them, because that's what was available.

For obvious reasons, you should never be "glassing" with a rifle scope. Putting the scope on a fellow hunter is a very bad idea.
 
March D60EV52 -- Haven't acquired one, yet, but I'm intrigued by the 40-60x52mm D60EV52. Basically, it's fixed-power internals with a 1.5x adjusting ocular eyepiece, allowing for a 40-60x zoom. 1/8 MOA turrets, 30mm tube, 24oz. About $2500 at EuroOptic and elsewhere.

I have the predecessor version 36x-55x52 EP Zoom and so far it holds POA just as well as my 50x and 60x fixed scopes. Probably due to my long history with fixed scopes of ever increasing power, I find I'm only using full power (55x) almost all the time. If I were buying another March it would be the D48F52.
 
I've never seen, let alone looked through, a March 36-55X52 EP Zoom. On the other hand, I've looked through the 40-60X EPZoom a few times. The current version does come with High Master Lens system with Super ED glass. I've always been intrigued by the 1.5X eyepiece zoom, which is similar to zoom eyepieces on spottting scope, except that the March EPZoom actually grows in length behind the riflescope so it does influence your head position.

I was told that benchresters like the 40-60X52 EPZoom because it completely guarantees absolutely no POA shift since it just enlarges the picture of the SFP.
 
When Kelbly's was selling their inventory of March scopes (6/2015), I bought the 36x-55x52 EP Zoom at a very good price. The EP zoom was an attraction to provide a slightly wider field of view for condition reading and a bigger target image for aiming (aim small miss small) all without shift of POA and parallax shift common to most erector cell zoom scopes. Mine also has the LR2 reticle (think of it as a combination of cross hair with dot and the LR reticle) which I was interested in tying out.

While both features have been fun to try for the last 7 years, If I were buying another March it would be the D48F52.
 
Hi folks,

after being a long time proponent of variable scopes I find myself enjoying fixed mag optics more and more.

2.5x28 Leupold Scout scope on a 44 mag lever action

4x36 Zeiss Diatal with a duplex reticle (West German and all)

8x56 Swarovski Kurtz number 4 ret with illuminated centre dot

surprisingly, really enjoying using these. I have traded quite a few variables but keep those scopes.

anyone else enjoy fixed scopes?

Scrummy
I have always had a soft spot for the theoretical increased ruggedness and maybe a slightly better picture with a quality fixed power scope. Lately, I have been using more variables because as my eyes age, I seem to value more magnification. However, I was unable to resist the current discount on the SWFA SS 10x HD so had to order one. I have used one before and they are a great scope that tracks precisely and retains zero as it should. It’s probably going to go on my hunting rig.

Some folks will question the FOV of a fixed ten for hunting, but a couple of years ago I had three Coyotes in my back yard one cold winter morning. I grabbed my wife’s Kimber Montana .223 which has a 10x SWFA SS on it, and smoked all three ‘yotes. The last one was about 200 yards by the time I got him.

John

 
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I’m usually helping my kids, nieces, nephews or young people on big hunts every year, I enjoy it, love seeing young people open their eyes to a world we all love.

This year I took one of my nieces out for a cow elk hunt. It was my rifle and was wearing a 3-15x NF. She was money on the steel all week prior to the hunt and was doing quite well out to 800 yards. On the second day of the hunt she got her chance, several elk feeding broadside off in the distance. Things were happening fast though, three bulls we had inadvertently jumped were headed for the cows and they were getting nervous. We got her set up on the death grip tripod, pinged the range finder, dialed the elevation turret and she confirmed everything felt good. Shot went off, elk dropped. After field dressing the elk and getting it home she helped my put up the gear. I always apply a light coat of oil to guns when out in the field and as I did so this time I noticed we never turned the power up. She shot her elk on 4x at 681 yards, center punched it. She had said the shot felt good, she doesn’t have enough experience to look through an optic and tell right away if it’s turned up or down.

I know high magnification is nice when shooting groups, sighting in and when you have the time to set up for a shot at range in the field. I think it can be over relied upon at times. Personally I rarely have the power up past 15x even when shooting at long range if the target is the size of an elk or a deer, smaller targets, yes. I realize scope power is a personal preference, seems like most opt for higher power optics even on hunting rigs but fixed powers are very capable too, especially at clear distances. They dont have the moving parts a variable has, less to go wrong, tougher in some regards. Some fixed lowers I have are incredibly bright and clear too. Just sharing another point of view.
 
While most of my life I was a target shooter, in the 1950s back on the farm we hunted much of our meat from squirrels to deer (always shot in the head to save meet). For squirrels and rabbits we used a Marlin lever action 22 with iron sights. For deer we used two Savage 99s one in 22 Hornet (quieter off season) and the other in 250 Savage (mostly in season). Both of the 99s were equipt with Weaver K4 60B scopes.

We ate well and wasted very little ammo.
 
UPS delivered the SWFA SS 10x HD today and I immediately mounted it on my hunting rig. Lost 1/2 pound off the rifle by doing so. Took it to the range and zeroed it. Zeroing was stupid easy, as it always is when you have a scope that tracks correctly. Didn’t bother with a tracking test, as I have used several SWFA SS scopes and they routinely track precisely and are ruggedly reliable. After zeroing, I dialed my DOPE for 600 and easily put these two shots on my 600 yard plate. Missed the wind call a little bit but I can live with it.

John

420701-DC-D2-F0-44-C3-8-DEF-0634-DC8-AFDE8.jpg


E9-D5548-C-3-E0-C-4-B3-C-B3-DD-FF2-D8220-A595.jpg
 
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Well I was hunting this weekend. 3 muntjac deer knocked over very in a very satisfying manner

8x56 Docter Scope
7x64 shooting 139gr GMX bullets with RS60 powder

Very good low light transmission

Scrummy
 

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