Any AR People?

[Hammerhead]

I am not an expert in the AR family.
I want to buy a 308. Not sure about piston or not. Do I need the forward assist?
Springfield, FNH, AR?

Tim

 

[Cort]

Tim,

I do not qualify as an AR person but I do have an exposure to the beast. I currently own a Rock River AR in .308 and am in the process of collecting parts for a .223 AR.

If you want the best accuracy from your AR, then the gurus all recommend no piston. Evidently, the extra moving parts affect the natural vibration of the barrel in a negative fashion. However, a piston system does run cleaner and cooler than a direct injection system. Usually, you can shoot more before having rifle malfunctions with the piston system.

As far as forward assist is concerned, I do not believe that the average shooter who maintains his/her firearm "normally" needs forward assist. If you shoot large amounts of ammunition, at rapid rates, the chamber gets pretty dirty so forward assist makes sense. If you don't, then it doesn't. Also, the quality of the ammunition can make forward assist necessary. Since you are posting on an accurate shooter forum, I doubt you will let your rifle get so dirty that forward assist is an issue and you will probably use good ammunition too. Accuracy has long since gone away by the time you need forward assist.

I like the AR platform over other platforms you mentioned just because of the flexibility. There are lots of after market accessories that allow changing the functionality and performance of your AR rifle. You can even have several uppers with different qualities that allow you to use the same lower in different situations. That said, there is nothing wrong with Springfields or FN's. They have been around for awhile and are very dependable.

A quality bolt action will usually give better accuracy than an automatic. It is easier to keep track of your brass with a bolt but follow-up shots are faster with the automatic. Bolt rifles function well over a broader spectrum of ammunition than most automatics. You need to decide what you want in your .308. One rifle will not serve all purposes well.

Good luck with your decision,

Cort

 

[jonbearman]

Armalite ar-10's are chambered to shoot match loads and they are not for shooting cheap garbage.I reload for my ar-10 and use a small base die and have had no problems and always use high quality bullets and the brass as well. It shoots a very small group at 100 yds. I think the dpms is a good value and they shoot good. And by the way I have forward assist and have only used it once.

 

[Keith Glasscock]

Forward assist is helpful if you have dusty, dirty conditions in the field. Rifles can get mucked up and not want to go. The forward assist can be the difference between having to stop and take the rifle apart or being able to get that one shot off.

It can also be helpful if you do something dumb. For example, letting the bolt down gently while loading can result in the round not fully chambering and the bolt not getting completely into battery. A bump of the forward assist can improve the safety of firing that round by pushing the bolt head forward enough to guarantee that the lugs are fully engaged.

I have a habit of bumping the FA when single loading. I don't know if it helps accuracy, but I can ensure that every round has been pushed into the chamber equally.

If I were building a rifle for range and general accuracy use, I'd skip the FA. For hunting or tactical type competition, I wouldn't be without it.

I'm not an AR guru either, I just have opinions and a little time behind the rifle.

 

[Minesweeper3433]

I have shot hundreds of thousands of rounds through my issued M4 and thousands of rounds through my personal AR15 and the only time I have ever used the forward assist is when some NCO made us train to use it or we are burning up blanks that have bent necks and wouldn't chamber right. I have not ever had a chamber so dirty that it wouldn't chamber a round but that is not to say it is impossible. After all they did design a forward assist into the rifle. I personally don't hold having or not having a forward assist against a rifle or upper receiver. It is either there or not, it makes no difference to me.

 

[TheSnake]

In the past, I would say I didn't have any use for an AR platform weapon. I have many bolt action rifles and got an f class target rifle from this site a few years ago. I do love shooting small groups and reloading.

A few months ago I started thinking about an M4 223 and the price of ammo when a buddy showed me a few 1000 round boxes of ammo he just got in the back of his SUV. That got me thinking about how much fun it would be to buy in bulk and shoot just for fun and not have to reload all that ammo. Well 3 weeks ago I got a Del-Ton M4, front rail grip, red dot sight, several clips and 500 rounds of Golden Bear. My wife and son (Marine) and I went to the back of the ranch and shot up a boat load of ammo and I must say, it was a blast. My wife loves it and our son had a great time shooting and showing us all he knows about this weapon. I know the brand I got is not the best out ther but it worked flawlessly even with the cheap ammo and was pretty darn accurate for what it is. The enjoyment our son is having with it alone is well worth the price. I got another 1000 rounds for $240 and am ready to go. This will be a good weapon to carry in the gator while running the ranch. If I want to shoot something more accurate or with more knockdown power, I can simply grab something else and take it along too. I am pleased with this purchase of my first AR.

Accessories, accessories, sooooo much to choose from!

 

[Hammerhead]

Thanks for the response guys. I got allot of good info from you.
Helps me a bunch.
I love my bolt action guns for reloading and accuracy, and have a SKS and a Carbon 15. I want a 308 and just was trying to get it in my head as what direction to take.

Thanks again,

Tim

 

[Forum Boss]

On forward assist: Never once had need for it with over 12,000 rounds fired in ARs used in normal range-type conditions (not dragged through mud). I am reminded of what one very successful three-gunner told me: "The forward assist is a device that can make a small problem into a big problem". What he meant was that, if you are having problems chambering a round, the last thing you want to do is jam the round into your chamber with extra force.

Piston vs. Direct gas impingement
The most accurate uppers I've shot have had the original simple gas tube. I would say they are 5 times more dirty than the piston uppers I've shot. This being gauged by how dirty the bolt and bolt carrier get. I'm not using the "5x" to say gas piston rifles are significantly more reliable than a well-made CLEAN gas impingement AR. Jerry Miculek says he thinks the piston ARs are "an answer for a question that didn't need to be asked".

For a pure defensive weapon I probably wouldn't buy an AR at all -- I would go with the SIG 55X series. It's really "dead nuts reliable", doesn't foul, has better magazines. But to continue it further, for home defense I'd take a shotgun first -- over ANY rifle. YMMV.

 

[nfhjr62]

Not realty into AR rifles but have a STAG lower and a DPMS upper 24in SS 1/8 barrel and collecting parts for a 300 AAC BLK

 

[Beau]

Never had to use the FA on my AR-10. The bolt is pretty heavy and chambers rounds decisively.

 

[velocette]

I've never had any problem with my DPMS LR308B chambering rounds. Never had the need of a fwd assist device. About 2000 rds downrange & 5 years of ownership. Nor have I ever had a problem chambering a round with my RR .223. I would not pay my hard earned $ for a useless (for my kind of shooting) appendage.

Roger

 

[nicholst55]

I firmly believe that the forward assist was added to the M16-series as a band-aid approach to non-chrome lined chambers and lack of proper cleaning/cleaning equipment in SE Asia. IMHO, it has been totally redundant since chromed chambers and bores became standard on the M16A1 rifle.

I agree with the statement above, that the forward assist will turn a minor problem into a major one. If the round doesn't want to chamber, why would you possibly want to force it? Eject it and move on. That's my take on the issue, anyway.

Gas piston rifles tend to be less accurate than direct impingement rifles. As far as running cooler and cleaner, let's face it - we're not engaged in firefights here! Several years ago Derrick Martin, of Accuracy Speaks, a member of the All Guard rifle team, shot his rifle for an entire season of competition without cleaning it. He did it to prove a point, obviously. If a match rifle will run for an entire season without cleaning, I think you'll get by running a DI rifle for shooting varmints or for competition. Shooting Times magazine also ran a 10,000 round torture test on a Colt AR several years ago -without cleaning it. They did have to lube the bolt a couple of times during the test, and they managed to burn the throat out of it - for the round that they fired during testing, anyway. The rifle shot tighter groups at the end of the test than it did at the beginning - with a longer, heavier bullet!

Being a retired Army senior NCO, I used to clean my AR-15s every time that I fired them from force of habit. Now I let the rifle tell me when it needs to be cleaned. I run them 'wet,' but I no longer clean them compulsively.

 

[Minesweeper3433]

I have purchased only one gas piston AR ever. It is a 12 inch 308 that I run suppressed, and well it needs it. She still gets dirty without the DI system.

 

[Larryh128]

Going back to the title of your post, Any AR Shooters?, When Clinton got in office, there were less that 500, 000 AR's in civilian hands, today there are over 3million at the last figures that I saw. So yes indeed there are AR shooters. I was one of the people that 20 years ago stated that I had no use for one. How wrong I was, most fun legally had.

 

[fr3db3ar]

I'm newer to AR's as I only got a couple last year. I've never had a round that wouldn't chamber get helped by the FA.

That being said, my LR308 Oracle has FA but the bolt isn't notched for it, so it's all for appearance.

 

[markm87]

The only .308 AR that has really impressed me is LMT's MWS. It just runs and runs... and it'll shoot matchkings sub MOA.

It's my buddy's gun.... weighs a ton, but we'll run it out to a thousand yards with its 16" barrel.

 

[dan06]

My grandfather tought me about rifles and shooting he shot on a state rifle team and went to perry 3 times in the late 30's he always called the AR-15 when the came out a "dasiyBB gun. When clinton got in office and tried to stop the sale of them I had to have a couple. I ended up with 2 Bushmasters H-bar rifles and they had a 1-9 twist crome lined barrels. Both of those rifles were good honest 1/2" 5 shot group shooters at 100 yards with the right loads. Boy was old Gramps surprised and amazed when i took him to the range to witness how well these rifles would shoot. At least......... after that he called them "precision air rifles" and not daisy BB guns. I know own one of those lowers a bit modified with a bushmaster preadator flat top upper. It is a good honest consistant 3/4 minute rifle. Cheap Ammo, accurate rifle, almost no recoil, What is not to like?

 

[lpreddick]

as a varmint hunter(ghogs), my les baer 223 custom varmint is my go to gun for pigs under 300 yds. i rarely need a followup shot, most are for showing off. i've never had to use the forward assist since i prep my brass carefully. the ar does have a lot of SMALL parts if lost can be the end of it's shooting. i bought a parts replacement kit just in case. my les baer extractor spring is not welded to the extractor as is my sons m4. that thing is small, so i don't remove the pin to clean anymore...i squirt some cleaner in it an blow canned air thru it until clean...love those cans of air and use 1 every couple weeks. bought a hard plastic brass catcher and don't lose any anymore. a really great rifle!

 

[queen_stick]

Going back to the title of your post, Any AR Shooters?, When Clinton got in office, there were less that 500, 000 AR's in civilian hands, today there are over 3million at the last figures that I saw. So yes indeed there are AR shooters. I was one of the people that 20 years ago stated that I had no use for one. How wrong I was, most fun legally had.

AR's are a great way to introduce people to shooting. The "average joe" has no desire to go to the range and shoot a bolt action. They want to shoot 1911's and AR15's. Nobody can deny how much fun it is to rip rounds out there... thousands of them!

I live in PA, so I can't hunt with an AR (or any semi-auto). Therefore, my thoughts have always been, if I can only shoot paper, then I have no need for an AR! However, as others have noted here, I have recently changed my mind, and will probably pick an AR in the future. Primarily to get my friends and family more involved in shooting. Although, I'll probably shoot it more than they will

good info in this thread... answered a few of my questions as well!

 

[Trebor Snave]

In the military I pretty much had my fill of the M-16 platform and had no plans to get one. Then, when I started shooting high power again, I used a Guard-supplied M-14. I had an AR by the second match! Now I have two "Service" uppers for high power, I'm putting together an upper for multi-gun competition, after that is an A2 that the kids can use at the range, after that I'll probably start putting together a "spacegun" match rifle... It's never ending.

Obviously I like the modularity. One basic upper and lower receiver, just add the parts you want to make anything from a 28" barrelled, 6mmAR match rifle to a short-barrelled, suppressed, flashlight & laser carrying "tactickle" rifle. Or whatever else trips your trigger.

The accuracy potential is astonishing, as well. In my case the limiting factor isn't the rifle, rather it's the nut behind the stock.

I do occasionally get annoyed at the limitations imposed by magazine length, but those can be overcome.

So yeah, I guess you could call me an AR person.