Annealing - who knew

[603Country]

I put a new scope on my 223 bolt gun and went to sight it in. No problem there, but the 5 shot groups were bad. They didn’t use to be bad. The problem wasn’t the rifle or the scope, or me. I decided to throw away that used Lapua brass, but was instead talked into annealing it. After the annealing, I loaded up some new Lapua cases, just to make sure my old trusty load was still good, and it was. Next up was the annealed brass, and lo and behold they shot into groups 1/2” to “3/4”. Prior to annealing, the groups were over twice that size.

Tomorrow is Starline brass day, finding the good load. H335, BR4 primers, and 65 gr Sierra GKs.

 

[jnyfeler]

Annealing: it's not just for brass life.

Jeff

 

[Big_Daddy]

Annealing: it's not just for brass life.

Jeff

Exactly!!!!

 

[Straightshooter1]

More evidence in a controlled environment:

And I put his data on a spreadsheet:

 

[JFrank]

Mine had an opposite reaction to annealing.

 

[Straightshooter1]

Mine had an opposite reaction to annealing.

Hmmm??? There must have been some significant difference involved in the details??? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Rick Richard]

Hmmm??? There must have been some significant difference involved in the details??? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah, annealing is too subjective without laboratory testing. Who can consistently read the exact flame temperature from one session to the next and then throw in the method of annealing….socket/drill, flame machine or induction machine?

 

[urbanrifleman]

Mine had an opposite reaction to annealing.

Yah, you can ruin perfectly good brass if you mess up the process.

 

[dantiff2]

Mine had an opposite reaction to annealing.

Anneal it more... You were likely (speculating) right on the cusp of actual grain restructuring and not hot enough or without enough dwell time. I find best results by going past the critical temperature needed. That gives me the best results in consistent neck tension and shoulder bump.

Edit: watch any brass making video from the manufacturing process. After the case shoulder and neck are formed, they get the case glowing red, in their annealing process.

 

[JFrank]

Firstly, Lou has a questionable SD from either load so I wouldn’t put any stock into that.
Mine in particular didn’t size very well nor did they have the same grip on the bullet as not annealed and seating depth was very erratic.
Target reflected the variances.

 

[dantiff2]

Firstly, Lou has a questionable SD from either load so I wouldn’t put any stock into that.
Mine in particular didn’t size very well nor did they have the same grip on the bullet as not annealed and seating depth was very erratic.
Target reflected the variances.

It's not for everyone. I would say: don't compare annealed to unannealed cases. They are vastly different and not interchangeable. Once you start annealing, I would recommend doing that for every load cycle to keep things consistent.
I don't know how anyone can possibly get 25+ loads on a case without annealing. I know they do For me, after 10 loads- I had to struggle to get consistent shoulder bump, due to spring back and annealing fixed that and made sizing (even large magnum cases) seem like butter. No more fighting spring back! I did lose neck tension. The softer neck structure does not retain as high of a clamping force but I never seen any negative effects due to that.

 

[GetReal]

I didnt "know."

Thankfully, others told me.

 

[NF1E]

Took 40 years to convince my self to anneal more. For the last 20 years after every firing they hit the flame. Consistency is the name of the game. As I age and my wobble factor increases, I have to eliminate any of the variables I can to keep things in the groove. Whatta Hobby!

 

[L.Sherm]

, due to spring back and annealing fixed that and made sizing (even large magnum cases) seem like butter. No more fighting spring back! I did lose neck tension.

I dont anneal.my 30-28 ADG cases and don't fight spring back or loose neck tension and that is one of the reasons it shoots the way it does im convinced but you better keep your cases segregated to times fired or you will fight consistent bump. A stiff nylon brush in the neck right before powder and seating even with .005 nk tension gives me very consistent seating depth.

 

[PatMiles]

Yeah, annealing is too subjective without laboratory testing. Who can consistently read the exact flame temperature from one session to the next and then through in the method of annealing….socket/drill, flame machine or induction machine?

Thus the AMP annealer.

 

[Krogen]

Thus the AMP annealer.

Speaking of which . . . . Do any of you know what's going on "under the hood" of an AMP Annealer? How does Aztek calibrate with a sacrificial case? What's the mechanism/process? Is it looking for an infrared signature? A temperature sensor? Or what?

I am very happy with mine. I'll never go back to flame annealing. I'm just wondering how it does its magic.

 

[Rick Richard]

Thus the AMP annealer.

Probably the closest to consistently, but not sure if it gets in the anneal temp zone….everytime…maybe.

 

[rwj]

Probably the closest to consistently, but not sure if it gets in the anneal temp zone….everytime…maybe.

AMP states their intent is to achieve a specific Vickers hardness in the neck (basically emulating unfired factory brass). Based on visual observations of the cases analyzed by their Aztec mode, it requires applying enough power to reach the melting point, then reduces power on subsequent analysis via their algorithm (proprietary?) to achieve the desired neck hardness. Users can adjust the recommended setting to achieve either harder or softer results.

 

[Straightshooter1]

Yeah, annealing is too subjective without laboratory testing. Who can consistently read the exact flame temperature from one session to the next and then throw in the method of annealing….socket/drill, flame machine or induction machine?

Yeah, the way annealing is talked about is indeed very subjective, where it's mostly guessing (unless you have an AMP machine). Even with the AMP machine, the user really doesn't know what they're getting and just goes by the feel they get with their seating operation. And this is why I found a way to do some actual hardness testing to see what works or not and to what extent.

While I didn't have access to very expensive lab equipment (like AMP's research had) and do testing like that , for all practical use, it's really just not necessary. I found my testing quite revealing.

Thread 'Flame Annealing - almost perfect'

Nov 23, 2024

As I mentioned in another thread, I recently bought a Webster Hardness Tester (it's a counterfeit) to get a better idea of what my annealing efforts were actually like. Am reporting back with what I've observed after doing some testing to see how this tester might help.

It's always been my objective to try and anneal my brass to a hardness at or close to what new brass is. . . like Lapua's brass. But I never had any way to take any kind of measurement and would just anneal to what I thought would be close enough. It was really nothing more than guess work. Now that I have this...

• Straightshooter1
• Replies: 82
• Forum: Reloading Forum (All Calibers)

• 
• 

Since then I purchased a Burstfire induction annealer and ran similar tests to see how different brands of brass react and what settings with my unit to get to my target annealing. Much like with my flame annealing, I had to get the necks to turn red for a split second (as observed in a darkened room) to get my target softness.

While one may not know the flame temperature from one session to another, one can go by the color temperature of the brass and figure out an amount of time to get pretty consistent results. Of course, the likes of an AMP or ADG's ARC Annealer has sensors for temperature that makes them an easy button to get a good and consistent anneal.

 

[603Country]

I use the candle method. Works fine, and is cheap.

And I think I found the good load with the Starline brass. More testing required though. For info sake, the Starline brass was, on avg, about 4 grains heavier than the Lapua.