annealing vs. runout

[Benjerman08]

I have an issue going n with my long range rounds. I guess issue is not the correct word as the gun and ammo shoot fantastic as I have done very well at mid and long range this summer. Sort of one of those little things most of us worry about just because we dont know the answer. I have gone to using my bench source annealer every time on my brass (great machine). I, like most am anal about my seating tension and bullet runout. Here's the deal: If I anneal every time, my "felt" seating force is fantastic. 98% of the bullets seating feel the same, light and smooth while seating. Yet, it seems when I anneal every time, my overall bullet runout is about twice as much (.002-.003) on average. If I anneal every 2-3 times, my bullet runout is much better (.001 average), yet seating forces seem to vary and I then segregate them into a few different lots. Ya, I know felt seating forces may not actually be accurate, but it is so nice to have them all feel the same. The rifle and ammo actually shoots very well both ways, I am just curious if anyone knows why the annealing throws the neck out slightly? I took second at a state match with bullet runout that averaged .003 a while back. I am starting to wonder if having them all at .001 or less is actually as important as I thought. Thanks.

 

[timeout]

Someone with more experience than myself will surely help you out here. I recently started annealing and had not concerned myself much with runout before that. I have been working hard at even neck tension. My rifle shoots better than I am capable of by annealing and doing all of the other things associated with precision loading as well as I can. I did check my most recent match ammo for runout and found most of it to be within .002" and a lot of it within .001". I can tell you that Mr. Tony Boyer feels that runout is not nearly as critical as neck tension. When Tony speaks, I tend to be "all ears". I can't say that annealing has affected runout. If it has, it can't be much. I anneal before resizing. I resize with Harrel custom made F/L bushing dies and bump the shoulder.001". All seems well with this method.

 

[BoydAllen]

Annealing necks softens shoulders a little. It is the shoulders that resist the force of the necks being forced into that part of the die. If they are softer, they are more likely to be bent in the process. Do you lube your necks? What is the difference in your fired and sized neck diameters? Perhaps taking the necks down in stages (if you are using bushings) would reduce the peak loading on the annealed shoulders.

 

[fdshuster]

Ben: Like you, I've also experienced more runout after annealing. Had 100 high time Lapua 220 Russian/6ppc & had them annealed.

Before annealing all 100 had a maximum loaded round runout of .002" with most being .001" or "zero".

When they came back, then loaded & checked for R/O on my Sinclair gauge, approx. 55 out of the 100 had loaded round R/O of .004" maximum. The other 45 remained at .002" and less.

Most of them have since straightened after the first or second firing, with only a few remaining at .004", but I've taken the worst and fired for group at 1 & 200 yards and for the most part have gotten some very excellent 5 shot groups. Even at that, will not use them in a match.

As Boyd said, I believe it's a case of the shoulders being softer & less able to stand up (straight) to the seating tension. Using a Wilson seater & arbor press. .262" chamber neck, .260" loaded round neck diameter ( neck walls at .0085"), using a .259" bushing.

 

[Scott Harris]

I too have had exactly the same experience: increased runout after annealing. the cartridges shoot awesome after annealing, but it would be nice to figure out how to anneal and keep runout minimimized. Maybe we should try to annealing just the neck.

 

[FroggyOne2]

I have never checked run out after annealing, but then I can not tell the diference on the 1000 yard target.

 

[Benjerman08]

Boyd and others: Ya that makes sense with annealing softening necks a little. My good gunsmith has my after fired brass showing .0005 neck runout. Wish I could keep em that straight after loading.

 

[Benjerman08]

sounds like a good problem to try and figure out and fix this winter.

 

[Benjerman08]

Frank, yes I lube the necks. I know what you mean about not taking anything that we conceive as sub-par to a match. It's a mental game and just thinking that something may not be optimum can make a person question his shooting.

 

[amlevin]

I too have had exactly the same experience: increased runout after annealing. the cartridges shoot awesome after annealing, but it would be nice to figure out how to anneal and keep runout minimimized. Maybe we should try to annealing just the neck.

It would seem that the runout you are seeing is not causing a problem. Sometimes we end up looking for a solution when there's actually no problem.