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Bullet runout or concentricity

Simple Answer: seat the bullet halfway into the case. Lower the ram, rotate the case 180* and seat.

If your original runout was .001" or less, be happy! If it is more, and my trick does not get you to that .001", get a better set of dies. I am in process on a live varmint rifle to be able to consistently hit Rockchucks at or past 1000 yards. Six inches wide, and twelve to fifteen inches tall. I will likely go with a set of Whidden dies. I have gravitated to them in the last year where 1-1.5 moa accuracy is needed. Depends on results to make the decision.

Good Luck,

ISS
Simple Answer: seat the bullet halfway into the case. Lower the ram, rotate the case 180* and seat.
I got that info from two older shooters over 40 years ago. I still do, and find my Whidden and Redding Bushing Dies just fine.

Just a note just got 200 Lapua 6BR cases. Ran then thru a Mandel Die. Start check a few for Run Out. Surprise most at .0005 a few .002.5
 
No runout at all would be ideal. Wouldn't perfection be great!

I am not sure what the least acceptable runout should be. I have only recently purchased a gauge and the runout I got on my latest 308 Win loads ran from a low of .002"(4 out of 15) to .007-.008 for the rest. I think that is not good.

I am using Lee dies. I think that a better bullet seating die would go a long way toward correcting my runout problem. If so, what bullet seating die would you recommend ?

I am using Winchester Match Brass.
Can you measure the run out of the neck right before the seating operation?
 
Runout isn't a problem for me because I have machined my press and dies to make sure I have none of it. If anyone is looking for 6PPC FL Bushings dies that are crooked and can't be fixed, then I have 2 for sale............
 
Simple Answer: seat the bullet halfway into the case. Lower the ram, rotate the case 180* and seat.
I got that info from two older shooters over 40 years ago. I still do, and find my Whidden and Redding Bushing Dies just fine.

Just a note just got 200 Lapua 6BR cases. Ran then thru a Mandel Die. Start check a few for Run Out. Surprise most at .0005 a few .002.5
Been doing this for years.
 
I've tested up to half of that variation with no real advantage on an F class target.

What I find so hard to wrap my head around is how a chamber and throat need to be withing 1 TENthouthanths yet we can feed it ammo that is miss aligned 100x that tolerance and it doesn't cause major issues.
So, a loaded round with run-out can apparently be corrected with a concentric chamber.
A non-concentric chamber? Matters not what your run-out is because unless the 'stars align', that bullet will leave the bore with a wobble.
Or so I see it.
 
So, a loaded round with run-out can apparently be corrected with a concentric chamber.
That seems to be the common idea and it kind of makes sense that with that tight space it would align the bullet to whatever concentricity the chamber holds.
 
No runout at all would be ideal. Wouldn't perfection be great!

I am not sure what the least acceptable runout should be. I have only recently purchased a gauge and the runout I got on my latest 308 Win loads ran from a low of .002"(4 out of 15) to .007-.008 for the rest. I think that is not good.

I am using Lee dies. I think that a better bullet seating die would go a long way toward correcting my runout problem. If so, what bullet seating die would you recommend ?

I am using Winchester Match Brass.
I use 6PPC made from 220 Russian but the methods I use could apply to any caliber (I think).
Case prep should be done fired cases and goes like this:
Clean brass
Decap
Anneal
Resize and expand (using an expander mandrel) and hold in the sizing position for 5 seconds. This reduces the "snap-back" effect after this process.
Trim the outer and/or inner neck wall thickness. This will reduce the bullet run-out to .002" - .005" which is within acceptable tolerence.
Take care in seating the projectile into the prepped case.
If you are having trouble with staying within .005" run-out, you can segregate the oddball rounds and use them for practice.
There are other factors that can reduce runout spread like the cost of high end dies, gages that have a higher resolution, etc; but with practice you should be able to consistently stay within the .005" margin.
Good luck
 
So, a loaded round with run-out can apparently be corrected with a concentric chamber.
A non-concentric chamber? Matters not what your run-out is because unless the 'stars align', that bullet will leave the bore with a wobble.
Or so I see it.
NO. Before the bullet leaves the “bore” it has to travel through how ever many inches of barrel, and has that much opportunity to become straight. Assuming there’s nothing wrong with the bore. But, I’m glad I don’t have to worry about runout, aren’t We guys;)
 
This is what I dont get, some stress over runout but then run crap brass and dont even turn necks.
Run good brass, dies set them up properly and the runout is taken care of.
So true. Successful shooters running "no turn" necks in competition usually do so using great brass. But, since "no turn" necks allows the use of the cheapest of brass without the need to turn it, folks are often surprised with the huge runout they get when they are not using great brass. Because I turn the necks on everything I shoot (whether tight neck or not), I have seen some pretty crazy stuff in the good brass as well. When bad brass has been turned, whether for a "turn" or "no turn" neck, results on runout improves. But a bad die (or even the press) can make everything bad. One option is to just buy themselves quality inline dies and press if they want to take out many variables at one time. I turn my necks, knowing that my bullet will be centered in the neck. I check to see that the die is performing as it should. I jam my target loads, taking out much, if not all remaining frontal runout during bolt lock-up. When jumping, a bit more attention can help, but often not as much as the numbers might lead one to believe. One can often make inexpensive brass shoot pretty well, but brass prep is often key, including weight checking for outliers, reaming flash holes, turning necks and leveling primer pockets. A lot of work, but some of us enjoy doing that. For those not interested in any of that - best to buy the best brass one can afford. At least you have probability on your side.
 
NO. Before the bullet leaves the “bore” it has to travel through how ever many inches of barrel, and has that much opportunity to become straight. Assuming there’s nothing wrong with the bore. But, I’m glad I don’t have to worry about runout, aren’t We guys;)
No it can't. In the bullet jump, if it isn't concentric, it will hit one side of the lands and grooves first, disrupting consistency. Repeatability can't begin if you haven't got it.
 
No it can't. In the bullet jump, if it isn't concentric, it will hit one side of the lands and grooves first, disrupting consistency. Repeatability can't begin if you haven't got it.
If the bullet were able to straighten itself out, I guess we can just toss the concentricity gauges, custom dies, neck turning gear and all that irrelevant equipment away? I'll keep mine.
 
Dirty shell holder will induce run out, I try and clen groove every loading session.
Not so much an issue if using a Co-Ax though I suppose the jaws could get a bit of crud on them but even de-priming on the press, the drop tube into a jar system takes care of the debris that might normally contaminate a shell holder on a more conventional press.
Just have never encountered a dirty shell holder, at least with enough crud to keep the case from sitting properly.
I do clean and anneal @ time so I suppose that is part of the reason for lack of anything in the shell holder groove on my conventional presses.
Also hand de-prime and never on a press.
 
Not so much an issue if using a Co-Ax though I suppose the jaws could get a bit of crud on them but even de-priming on the press, the drop tube into a jar system takes care of the debris that might normally contaminate a shell holder on a more conventional press.
Just have never encountered a dirty shell holder, at least with enough crud to keep the case from sitting properly.
I do clean and anneal @ time so I suppose that is part of the reason for lack of anything in the shell holder groove on my conventional presses.
Also hand de-prime and never on a press.
The groove definitely gets some crud built up from dust n debris from repetitive use and have trouble shooted concentricity issues back to the shell houlder.
 
So, a loaded round with run-out can apparently be corrected with a concentric chamber.
Absolutely incorrect.

The tools needed to determine what matters are an extremely accurate rifle, shooting a stable load, using BR quality bullets and shot over flags by someone that has good flag reading skills.

Even then, all that can be determined is that this/that makes a difference with that particular combination.

Given the tools above and the mental ability to put aside preconcieved notions and let the targets speak, the guidelines become apparent pretty quickly.

Hard truths, but there it is.

Good shootin' -Al
 
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Simple Answer: seat the bullet halfway into the case. Lower the ram, rotate the case 180* and seat.
I got that info from two older shooters over 40 years ago. I still do, and find my Whidden and Redding Bushing Dies just fine.
I never use my press for seating bullets, I always use Wilson inline dies. But I have done it that way for years, in fact more often then not, I may turn it 2 or 3 times.

However.......

I was loading for a new 6.5 PRC, and I was struggling mightily with runout. Out of desperation, I tried seating in one fell swoop, and runout immediately dropped to one thou or under.

The ol' adage, "Trust, but verify" comes to mind.....
 
"Trust, but verify" comes to mind.....
Always. ;)

g4T05Kol.jpg
 
I use the Redding 'S' dies, with the collet, to resize and the Vickerman seating die, now handled by Nosler. A Vickerman shell holder is needed on short cases, it doesn't lock the case down, the case can move a little to "center". Using a Sinclair concentricity gauge I get very, very little 'run out'.
 

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