Annealing VERY short brass

[Nvreloader]

This is for the guys that KNOW and UNDERSTAND annealing brass,

Here is what I am attempting or wanting to do,
I need to anneal 2 different sizes of brass,
the Hornet and 223 head diameters, for my WILDCAT case designs,
These 17, 20 and 22 caliber cases START with a .600" TOTAL CASE LENGTH,
and go to a total length of 1.400", for each caliber, 5+ cases per caliber series.

These .600" case lengths are causing me the most headaches,
the body length from case head to start of shoulder angle is .320" long,
(on the .600" length cases, in each cal,)
the shoulder angle is .080" long, which ends at .400",
then a neck length of .200".

As formed NOW,
I am at the start of the VERY THICK INTERNAL web of the case heads,
in the Hornet/223 brass types, for these short .600 case lengths,
neck thickness runs .015/.020" thick, depending on what cal being formed.

I have 1 lot of 10 cases, (17 cal) that have been reloaded/shot over 5+ times,
the shoulder angles are just now forming out to full chamber dimensions,
with the chamber pressures that are safe for the Hornet case,
15 gr @ 3000+ fps/18" bbl.

So, I think these cases need to be annealed??

My thoughts are at this time for annealing these cases,
is to use Mapp gas instead of propane gas,
as to quickly anneal and reduce the time required,
seeing the VERY SHORT case body lengths of .320".

Any thoughts, suggestions or Ideas,
on full annealing of these short case shoulder/necks,
without annealing the case head, is greatly appreciated.

Tia,
Don

 

[savagedasher]

Mapp gas burns hotter than propane so the dwell time will be less. Tip or flame angel changes dwell time also. The most heat of a flame is at the point . All the above must be addressed when doing short small cases.
Larry

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Id use molten lead in a lead pot

 

[Dakota_Mike]

How about inserting a spent primer and adding a little water to give the case head a better heat sink so it doesn't get too hot. Use a syringe and add the same mL of water to each for consistency.

 

[jlow]

There are at least two ways to do this, apart from the molten lead method but really that is still just heating it differently and done incorrectly the heat can still migrate to the head..

One is the already stated brute force approach which is to do it super fast with Mapp gas and hope that the heat does not migrate to the head. This might be possible but the shorter the anneal time, the greater the possibility of error/variation in the anneal time and degree and evenness of the anneal. For example, if your variation is 1/8 of a second and your anneal time is 1 second, your error would by 12.5%. If your anneal time is 4 seconds with the same variation, you error would be 3%. That's not even talking about the area your anneal which with a narrow tip torch is not heating the whole shoulder/neck at the same time and so requires some turning to get that evenness..

The other way would be to do it with the head in water so that it cannot get annealed and that way you can use a normal anneal time with less error. The Ken Light annealer is designed to be used with water and may be your best bet.

 

[savagedasher]

Id use molten lead in a lead pot

That is the most conctent temperature you can have. How do you stop the lead from sticking? Larry

 

[Iowa Fox]

Don, The shortest cases I have done are my 17AH and 17mach1V. I use a old round cake pan my wife was throwing out and the annealing tip from Todd Kindler. I got that annealer from him maybe about 25 years ago and it has worked well on the little cases. I just use regular propane. I have to change water about every 2nd batch of cases as it gets hot quick, that tells me without the water to much heat would find its way to the bases on those short little guys. Jon

 

[R.Morehouse]

induction is fast and constant.....

 

[savagedasher]

induction is fast and constant.....

Not constant as lead . Larry

 

[savagedasher]

Id use molten lead in a lead pot

Tell us all how you keep the lead from sticking. ? Larry

 

[Dusty Stevens]

The lead doesnt stick at all. Maybe a spot or 2 but itll brush off with your fingers. Old skool cats did it this way back before annealing was internet hype

 

[savagedasher]

The lead doesnt stick at all. Maybe a spot or 2 but itll brush off with your fingers. Old skool cats did it this way back before annealing was internet hype

Mine did it actually tin the surface . Beeswax helped. What temperature did you use? Larry

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Whatever temp my lee production pot runs at i have no idea. You stick a case in and as soon as you feel heat on the base throw it into a tub of water. No lead anywhere on the case and they look exactly like lapua did it. Like i said this was the way folks annealed brass long before ken light and benchsource made a machine to do it

 

[Nvreloader]

Thanks guys,
for the info.

Dusty,

Do use hold the case with fingers??

With this .600" total length case, I don't think I could hold it in a lead pot....
the fingers would be annealed before the case was. Lol

I have used the lead pot before and all I did was coat the necks with lead,
using lead that was pure lead to straight WW, fluxed or not, same results.

I think I am going to rig a turning device up, so the deprimed case spins around,
while sitting in a lid/container holding water around the case head.

I will also get some temp lac, just not sure as there are several suggestions
as to the correct temp to use, 425* at the shoulder line??

Will temp lac work underwater, as I plan on painting a stripe right at the case body/shoulder jct,
with the case sitting in water right at the shoulder jct.

Still planning/thinking etc.

Tia,
Don

You stick a case in and as soon as you feel heat on the base throw it into a tub of water.

 

[NorCalMikie]

A deep socket in the size that will fit the case head, (I think I used a 1/2") stuffed with steel wool so the case sticks far enough out of the socket, spun with a drill motor and Map Gas to heat the case. Takes less dwell time. Maybe 4 or 5 seconds? Heated, dropped out into a pan. No water!! Torch stands on it's bottom so the only thing moving is the socket and case in the flame. Dark room to watch for color change. Worked great for my 20 VT "short" cases. -.200".
And should work about the same when I start changing neck sizes to 20 and 17 on the 22 TCM brass.

 

[savagedasher]

I have had the same problem with lead. Guess Dusty don't want to give up the secret.
Larry

 

[Dusty Stevens]

If its too short use needle nose pliers. Its not like i invented this method and im not trying to get people to do it. When i anneal the brass i form for my little AP pistol made from 10mm brass that kinda looks like a five seven i use a lead pot. I dont sit around and think about it i just do it. Its the way folks did it 50yrs ago before the internet told em all shooting related problems could be solved by annealing. Lead doesnt stick to the brass and i dont burn my fingers. All lead pot warnings/darwin applies here- dont use it outside if it may rain, dont dip wet cases in there, dont touch the molten lead, dont breathe lead fumes, etc

 

[Dusty Stevens]

Ok don a simple google search i found the answer to your question on keeping lead off cases. You have to be up to a hot casting temp 700+ and you have to use pure lead. Since my pot runs at 750 and i use wheelweights for my base alloy ive never seen any sticking. I also read that if the brass is clean it could slightly stick and leaving a primer in the case creates an airlock that keeps lead out of the inside. They also say you can dip your case necks in mica or graphite. What i always did was form my cases in a form die, fireform, dip the necks, throw into water to stop the heat, then tumble to get rid of the dingleberries. I did this with my bare hands and when it felt very hot was the time that the cases had a perfect blue/straw color that looked exactly like factory lapua brass. I dont advocate or recommend this method. Its a method thats in my toolbox i can use just fine and now that i have 2 annealing machines i still couldnt use either of them on this case so next time i need to make any more of those cases ill do it again and itll work out again just like it did. Nobody has to use it!

 

[Gabe22BR]

Is there an anealer that will do fireball to dasher size brass?

 

[savagedasher]

Is there an anealer that will do fireball to dasher size brass?

Don't try lead. I tried the the recommendation above . Both temperature and pure lead wheels weights with and without the primer . Got a good anneal but the lead sticks. Going to try different things to stop lead from sticking.
Getting the torch angles works with all the annalers is the secret . Larry