Annealing ??Tempilaq won't go clear..Just goes black

[harv50]

Just getting a benchsorce annealer set up for the first time...Pretty easy setup ...BUT when I went to set up for the flame dwell time my 650 tempilaq turns black almost immediately.
I have the flame set at center of shoulder and the point of the flame between 3/8" - 1/2" away from the shoulder (just like the directions say), but no matter how long I leave it in the flame it only turns black. I have alot of junk 6BR cases that I am using to get it set up (I've took the timer up to 7 Seconds just to see if I could get it to "go clear" but notta.. I called but Dave is gone until Tuesday and I guess he is the one that knows the answer.. I believe it was his wife I talked to and she said she thought it had something to do with the flame...Any how I don't want to go any further (on my Dasher brass) until I get the dwell time right so I thought A Post here might find me the answer.. Sooooooo any body know what the cure is?? :-\

 

[Lostcreek]

When i got my Benchsource annealer i had 4 people tell me not to waste my money on tempilaq,but i was too bullheaded to listen. Don't waste your time with the stuff. Talk to David on how to set your torches and set your timer for 4 to 4.5 seconds and you will be good to go. I have pictures that David sent me and i can send them to you if you like.

 

[harv50]

I'd like to see the Pics if you would send them..thanks Harv

 

[FeMan]

The templiaque isn't supposed to be placed in an open flame since it will burn. Paint it on the inside of the case neck. That works perfect for me.

 

[DennisH]

The templiaque isn't supposed to be placed in an open flame since it will burn. Paint it on the inside of the case neck. That works perfect for me.

I also agree with the above. If the brass isn't perfectly clean, it will turn black. Wash good with soap and water, let dry, then try.

Inside the neck is the best way, but make sure the inside is clean as well.

JMO, Dennis

 

[jakelly]

The templiaque isn't supposed to be placed in an open flame since it will burn. Paint it on the inside of the case neck. That works perfect for me.

This solved the issue for me as well. The tempilaq forms a clear hard puddle or run on the inside of the case, which may or may not matter to you.

 

[bow shot]

I only post this to save someone else the aggregation that I endured over this stupid "black" thing…. I could not get mine to do anything other than go black (if applied heavily) or just morph from chalky lime to chalky-gray (if applied in one normal coat). Ok, here we go:

I went thorough the "black" thing myself. After explaining how I was using it in great detail here on the forum (ie., NOT in the flame, etc… I could bore you all day which the different ways I tested… torch, dipping in lead, dipping in annealing salt bath, soldering iron, applied half way down the case, blah, blah, blah) and hearing so many people just disregard what I was describing and basically tell me I was using it wrong, I dug deeper. It amounts to this: When you buy a bottle of that stuff (especially the higher temps) its a crap shoot. Sometimes bottles go clear, some go black. It is NOT supposed to go black/dry @ target temp, its supposed to go to liquid. I talked with Tempil over the phone, read their literature, etc., and they confirmed that.

After farting precious time away with this stuff for MONTHS (6 different sticks, 5 different bottles, calling Tempil, received replacement bottles and sticks, goggling, talking to welders and fabricators) I came to this conclusion: Its not a good indicator. I have absolutely NO confidence that WHEN USED PROPERLY, tempilaq or tempilsticks (or the sister Markal products) will indicate target temperature achievement.

I'm NOT saying that other folks did indeed get the right behavior out of the 'laq. I'm saying that if they did, they were blessed. Yup, I saw it on some vids (I think… resolution/definition is always poor).

Perhaps Tempil/Markal do indeed get proper function in the lab before they ship 'em… ?

Ok, all that said: It seems to me that this is a true thing: At the annealing point, as the bonds between the metal crystals are released, and the metal crystals drift into a relaxed arrangement, the resulting energy conversion (motion to light) produces a dull orange glow. This also produces, or may produce zinc (tin color) and oxides (gold color) the surface of the case.

JMO, and I humbly submit that mightier, and finer-tuned minds than mine may rightly disagree!

I think this thread is pretty important: http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3828652.msg36305812#msg36305812

 

[bow shot]

…and I'll give it one more try today on a super-clean, scrubbed, spotless case.

 

[bow shot]

Just checked on a highly polished case: same result. 'thought I'd better double-check..

 

[harv50]

Read the responces ..thanks everyone.. Well I tried it with super buffed up clean cases inside the neck and out but it still turns black (and starts to go black in less than a second.. still confused.. I guess I'll have to try it in the dark and see what time it takes to get it to show faint red, more red, more red, etc... can't see any purpose in under annealing but don't want to "over anneal" either.. I'm more concerned with case grip than case life.. thanks again, harv

 

[DHD]

I use a Benchsource and used 450 and 700 degree tempilac when i was setting it up for dwell times intiatially. I followed the written directions as best I could to find the correct distance for flames (for me) and dwell times, and I wrote it all down.

Anyway, I painted a stripe of the tempilac on the case walls and noticed that it turned a chalky grey when the case heated up. The strip I painted on the case neck turned black if were painted on the outside of the case. I put some inside the case neck and then I used that as my dwell time for that size/brand case. I load for about 9 different calibers, so it took a while.

I found that when tempilac gets "hit" by the flame it does turn black (but the tempilac that just gets heated up turns the chalky grey I described earlier) and is a SOB to remove. I ruined a few in the learning process.

In my case, I found that brightly polished cases don't show the anneal marks we are familiar with. That does not mean it hasn't been annealed, it just doesn't show up the same as a dull case.

YMMV.

 

[harv50]

OK got into a darkened area (tip of flame approx 1/2" from shoulder) and at 4.5 Seconds faint red at the top of the neck 5 seconds and the whole neck shows faint red...decided to see how long to get them to look like new lapua cases (sort of silver neck and blueish about a 1/8" down from the shoulder) took 7 seconds and the neck was very red..
So I'm guessing it should be at least 4.5 seconds and less than 5..
Opinions ?????

 

[DHD]

With my torches, I keep to "inner" flame approximately 1.5" from the case and the "outer" flame washes over the case. 4.25 seconds for 308 Lapua is my dwell. 308 Hornady Match is 3.75 seconds. I have never looked for a "red glow" since I have been using the Benchsource, and if the case doesn't have the Lapua blue on the neck/shoulder, that is not a problem to me (as described in my earlier post).

Again, these are my times and techniques.

 

[Syncrowave]

What temperature are you shooting for? Do those laser infrared thermometer things work?

 

[bow shot]

9-13 seconds for me with Laupua 6.5-285 brass. I use a single torch, with the case (rotating in a socket) deep enough into the inner blue flame that it covers the whole neck, mouth-to-shoulder, but no more.

Some folks suggest pointing the flame at the neck/shoulder junction, and using just the tip of the inner blue… lots of opinions/variations to be heard on that.

I did find that the 400 tempilstick did NOT melt (using the above method) until it is applied close to the head. Its really the only too I have to judge temperature… as little faith as I do have in it. I'll say this about the low temperature, 400F and 500F
tempilsticks: They seeeeemed fairly "regular". There's a lot of explaining I could go into there, but I'll spare unless someone asks. I have zip good to say about the higher temperature 'sticks (700, 750, 800, 900 degreeF).

As usual, FWIW, and YRMV... ???

 

[bow shot]

Tried the IR: no good. For some reason it will not pick out the brass even if you paint it, ink it, soot it. Kinda weird?

I was shooting for 850F..

 

[bow shot]

I keep spelling Lapua wrong..

 

[Syncrowave]

Tried the IR: no good. For some reason it will not pick out the brass even if you paint it, ink it, soot it.

I'll be darned. I know shiny is no good but that's odd that sooting / painting it won't work. Thanks for the info. I guess I'll stick to the "by eye" way.


ETA: Are most of you guys quenching after the necks are annealed? I know quenching won't change the hardness, but thought it might not be a bad idea to try to keep heat out of the heads as much as is possible with a copper alloy like brass...I get the feeling that the cooler you can keep the heads, the better, to keep them as hard as possible.

 

[bow shot]

yeah, the IR dump bugged me too..

In my case (!) once the torch is removed, the heat transfer to the head stops.. I didn't expect the equilibrium thing to go that way… that's what I got anyway.

 

[Syncrowave]

In my case (!) once the torch is removed, the heat transfer to the head stops.. I didn't expect the equilibrium thing to go that way… that's what I got anyway.

Are you saying that by the time the necks reach 850°F, the heads are also 850°F? If so, that doesn't sound good.

Or do the necks get to 850°F and then drop almost immediately when you remove the flame, as the heat "wicks out" into the heavier brass in the body and head of the case, thus dropping the temperature? (Suspect that's what you mean.)

I know that alloys of copper like brass are super-good thermal conductors, which is why I wondered about the heads getting hot, since the heat travels so fast and so well. Copper is the 2nd-best metallic conductor of heat there is. Only silver is more conductive.

The last time I annealed was back in the early 80s (I'm just now getting back into reloading for rifles again after a long break) and the way I was told back then to do it was to stand the cases up in a baking sheet with 1/2" of water in it, and heat the necks until soft, then tip the cases over... but I like this idea of using the drill, deep-well socket, propane torch and timer better... just don't like the idea of the heads getting hot (or at least hotter than 212°F) ... I wonder whether it would be worthwhile to put all the cases into a bucket of water first, then shake out the water before annealing each one. The residual water in the bottom of the case would probably keep the head below 212° it seems like...