annealing question

[bobcat93]

I've been annealing rifle cases for about 5 years now. I deprime, tumble, anneal then size cases. I use a socket chucked up in a drill, I first apply heat indicator just below the shoulder. Then spin case in flame till indicator melts. I use to drop hot case in water now I just drop into a pan and let cool with out water. I try to be consistent as possible with dwell time in the flame
Ok here is what I notice.
No matter how consistent I try to be, and with the aid of heat indicater paste when I size my cases some seem softer then the other i.e. " less tension felt during the sizing process". This leads me to believe that with out a annealing machine there is no way to keep consistent dwell time, thus each case will either be annealed to a different rate and massively effect neck tension. I anneal to prolonge case life and to create a more consistent neck tension. I have noticed that after about 3 firings of annealed cases my groups settle down and become more consistent.
My question is do you guys notice the same thing? Am I doing something wrong? Or is this on par with annealing by hand? And if I want more consistent neck tension I need to buy a motorized case annealer?
Thanks

 

[LHSmith]

I used to do it manually also. It is very hard to keep the pencil flame at the same spot, case after case. Since using a Bench Source Annealer, I have gained better consistency in neck tension. What type and Temp range indicator are you using? Propane or Mapp gas? You might be overheating some necks into the dead soft region.

 

[bobcat93]

Its 650° indicator, supposedly if placed on the case/ shoulder junction when it starts to melt the neck will be at the proper temp. I do not go by the dark room / just before pink method. I trust the indicator. I do not believe they are over annealed, But more that some are under annealed. I might break down and shell out the $$ for the machine.. Its hard to spend 500$ on one. I like the results and Science of annealing

 

[Webster]

Did you try a spreader tip on the torch for more uniformity? I would think a pencil tip would hard to give you uniform heat over a large area even if you are rotating the case. 650F is the bottom end of the annealing range. I don't think a couple seconds at 650F does any annealing. You are determining when it reaches temperature. You don't know how long it's at temperature. It's temperature and time dependent. You are probably stress relieving?

 

[bobcat93]

Webster: that is why I put 650° on the case just below the shoulder when it melts there the neck should have reached the perfect temp and I know its time to remove from the heat sorce . doing it by hand there is no way to control consistent & accurate dwell time and it create inconsistency in neck tension. So I am creating that which I am trying to remove. I believe every step in reloading needs to be precise as possible..how can annealing be done precise with out a controled dwell time..

 

[csandfort]

My brother is having good luck by putting 750 degree Tempilaq inside the case neck and heating/spinning until the Tempilaq "just" melts. It is time consuming but consistent. The melted Tempilaq easily brushes out of the neck. I use a Bench Source and set up my annealing run by painting Tempilaq inside 4-5 donor cases to get the tip distance and timing just right before running the remaining brass. I actually use 700 degree Tempilaq for small 17 caliber cases because the Bench Source stops spinning the case for a brief period of time before advancing the case....my only complaint about the Bench Source.

HTH.

 

[Webster]

I put this chart on the website several times. Here it is again. I cut the necks off of Lapua 6BR blue box cases and heat treated them in a lab furnace that controlled temperature to +/- 2 degrees F. Then I determined the hardness. Interpret it any way you wish. Looks like the important thing is to find a method you like that works and stick to it.

 

[smokey262]

I put this chart on the website several times. Here it is again. I cut the necks off of Lapua 6BR blue box cases and heat treated them in a lab furnace that controlled temperature to +/- 2 degrees F. Then I determined the hardness. Interpret it any way you wish. Looks like the important thing is to find a method you like that works and stick to it.

What was the HRB of a brand new neck?

 

[Webster]

I didn't have a new case to test. My guess it was in the 82-85 HRB (Hardness Rockwell "B" scale) range. Interesting that there is very little hardness loss at 800F for 15 minutes. I'm retired now. No chance to do testing anymore. For all of the heat treated samples at all times and temperatures I saw no change in grain size. This really surprised me. Large pieces of brass that are commercially heat treated are usually one hour at temperature.

What we are doing is called rapid annealing. Rapid annealing is normally done at higher temperature than annealing of larger heavier pieces. This is because it's time and temperature dependent. A higher temperature requires less time. It's difficult to find published literature on flash annealing because every company determines what works with their parts and heat treating equipment. It looks like you have to find a process that you feel is working on your brass and stick with it.

 

[bobcat93]

Once again we are running in circles..over anneal, under anneal, 650°/ 800° temp. Stick..
Do you guys feel a differents when sizeing your brass after annealing between cases?
Does it even matter ..or is annealed brass all the same ' for what we are doing,

 

[kelbro]

I still don't understand it when folks say they can't get consistency annealing by hand. Torch set on a base, blue set to 1", hold the brass at the blue/orange junction of the flame at an angle, count one, two, etc...

 

[Erik Cortina]

I'm no expert, but I think brass is either annealed or not, there are no levels.

I would do it in a dark room and watch for the necks to start to turn color to make sure they are annealed.

Do you turn necks?

 

[bobcat93]

my current rifle build will require turned necks...I'm not sure what the proper procedure would be with fire formed case and turned neck..I would assume turn neck, size, fire form

 

[WindSurgeon]

I do it the same way as you, only I don't use and indicator. I wait to see the color change to blue and then dump it in water. I don't turn out the lights. I can feel the difference when seating bullets and I don't get split necks any longer, which is about all you can expect from a hand annealing process. Incidentally, I anneal every two firings, not every firing. In terms of consistent neck tension, turning your necks has more of an impact IMHO.

 

[Geronimo Jim]

Does you 650 degree templaq seperate? I mean while in the bottle.

 

[bobcat93]

It kind of bubbles then turns brown; if I leave the heat on it to long it turns black

 

[jlow]

I just love the way people think that everything about reloading needs to be precise and accurate except annealing – LOL! This sorry folks does not compute…

Webster’s study although it is missing some data clearly highlights the problems and danger of over annealing i.e. if you go past certain point, it’s going to soften fast. Anyone who has intentionally or accidentally significantly over anneal will tell you that the brass can get super soft.

So what does this mean. I think it means if you are just annealing to reduce neck splits and don’t really care too much about a slight difference in neck softness, the socket and drill method works just fine.

If you are annealing for consistent neck tension for long distance shooting, the only way to achieve this is with a machine. The problem with the drill and socket method is it is impossible to hold the case exactly the same distance and orientation relative to the flame and keep the time of annealing exactly the same.

If you anneal in the dark until it starts to turn red, the experts will tell you that you have over annealed. If you use Tempilaq, it works just great for checking the temperature of the head but at the neck and shoulders it you put it on the outside, it burns and not melts that is because the flame (but not the actual temperature the brass reaches is much higher). If you put it inside the neck, it is very difficult to see and of course you dirty the neck which you don’t want for consistent neck tension.

 

[CatShooter]

I'd love to hear different people's opinions on what "over annealed" is and what it does to the case.

I anneal a lot (just finished 900 cases), and I anneal until the neck is red - I have never had a problem with uneven seating force, or any shortened case life, or any of the other boogeymen that I keep hearing about, and using the socket method is easy to have uniform results.

I have also found that blue case colour is not a good indicator because it can vary depending on how the case was prepped prior to annealing

With these cases, all had the same annealing but the ones on the left turned darkish blue, the ones on the right have a light silver tint.

Both have the same hardness.

 

[LHSmith]

If the necks are black.....they are probably in the dead soft condition........useless for ever getting springback again without re-melting the brass and re-drawing. Heating necks to red will guarantee dead-soft .....this is not rocket science....simple metallurgy. Yeah, dead soft necks are very uniform......which may be fine if you shoot fitted necks. But I want cases that maintain the same properties of new cases so that I can put every bullet in the same exact hole.
I believe our accuracy standards are worlds apart.

 

[bobcat93]

Ger. Jim
Thextemp indicater will kind of bubble then turn brown..if I leave the heat on to long it cooks to a stinky black..