Annealing,please will someone help me

[Campbell]

I received my gas fuelled annealing machine today and have been playing around with it.

The recommended time in the flame is between 7 and 8 seconds. At 7 seconds the neck (i.e. mouth to the beginning of the shoulder) glows red for an instant. Is this an indication of the correct time or am I over annealing?


Many thanks in advance.

 

[ballisticdaddy]

There are way too many variables involved to go by time in the flame alone. Best thing I can recommend is to buy yourself some 700 degree tempilaq so you can ensure the target temperature. If the brass is already glowing red hot then yes it has been overcooked.

 

[CoyoteTan]

tempilaq is your friend

 

[DngBat7]

I received my gas fuelled annealing machine today and have been playing around with it.

The recommended time in the flame is between 7 and 8 seconds. At 7 seconds the neck (i.e. mouth to the beginning of the shoulder) glows red for an instant. Is this an indication of the correct time or am I over annealing?


Many thanks in advance.

https://shop.cartridgeanneal.com/Tempilaq-2-Oz-Bottle-750-Deg-200260.htm

 

[#40Fan]

I'd be perfectly fine with just a light glow for a split second. That seems to get my tempilaq flowing just right.

 

[Campbell]

Many sincere thanks for all of your replies!

Tempilaq costs in the UK what I define as a fortune, but it would seem that I need to acquire some!

Thanks again, folks!

Cam

 

[ballisticdaddy]

Tempilaq costs in the UK what I define as a fortune, but it would seem that I need to acquire some!

I am guessing brass must be really cheap there as I would never anneal my Lapua brass without Tempilaq.
http://waltersandwalters.co.uk/tempil-tempilaq-liquid

 

[Damfino]

I'd be perfectly fine with just a light glow for a split second. That seems to get my tempilaq flowing just right.

For me, annealing has always been more art than science, but this matches my results and experience.

 

[T-shooter]

The amount of time will be different based on the size of the cases. Put the flame on the shoulder, not the end of the neck. Any glowing red is probably too much heat. Better to under-anneal than over because you haven't ruined the cases.

 

[riflewoman]

The time to anneal depends on the case you’re annealing, the amount of energy in the gas you have ( yes it does vary) and where you point and adjust the flame. If you get a tinge of red glow on the neck for a second or two you’re probably ok. You’re definitely ok if you had a very low light in the room.

For about 60 or.70 years it was “stand the cases in an inch or so of water, heat the neck shoulder junction until a dull red glow, then tip over” as standard method of annealing cases. Nobody’s gun blew up as far as I can tell from doing this... now we have tempilac and a million ideas on how and when to anneal brass most of which are not based on metallurgical science.

There is a time AND temperature requirement for case annealing, you don’t get annealing at 700F. You get stress relief but not annealing. The annealing temperature is dependent on the amount of cold work present in the brass, more cold work the lower the temperature. With 4 or 5 firing cycles it will be around 900F. But to get the best effect it will have to be held at that temperature a few seconds. If you get it to 1100F the annealing benefit is pretty much instantaneous. And 1100F is just a dull red glow for a few seconds.

So you’re fine.

 

[ballisticdaddy]

The time to anneal depends on the case you’re annealing, the amount of energy in the gas you have ( yes it does vary) and where you point and adjust the flame. If you get a tinge of red glow on the neck for a second or two you’re probably ok. You’re definitely ok if you had a very low light in the room.

For about 60 or.70 years it was “stand the cases in an inch or so of water, heat the neck shoulder junction until a dull red glow, then tip over” as standard method of annealing cases. Nobody’s gun blew up as far as I can tell from doing this... now we have tempilac and a million ideas on how and when to anneal brass most of which are not based on metallurgical science.

There is a time AND temperature requirement for case annealing, you don’t get annealing at 700F. You get stress relief but not annealing. The annealing temperature is dependent on the amount of cold work present in the brass, more cold work the lower the temperature. With 4 or 5 firing cycles it will be around 900F. But to get the best effect it will have to be held at that temperature a few seconds. If you get it to 1100F the annealing benefit is pretty much instantaneous. And 1100F is just a dull red glow for a few seconds.

So you’re fine.

Here is a passage from an article The Art and Science of Annealing posted here on the 6MMBR website which is not in line with your take on the proper temperature range: "The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds. If brass is allowed to reach temperatures higher than this (regardless of the time), it will be made irretrievably and irrevocably too soft." The link to this article is http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

 

[riflewoman]

And here’s a 1945 scientific study which backs my assertions. It was written by Metallurgical Science students at a major university.

https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bit...9/engineeringexperv00000i00359.pdf?sequence=3

 

[ballisticdaddy]

And here’s a 1945 scientific study which backs my assertions. It was written by Metallurgical Science students at a major university.

https://www.ideals.illinois.edu/bit...9/engineeringexperv00000i00359.pdf?sequence=3

Appreciate the link to that study and after skimming through the 66 page document I found nothing to support your assertions especially when every chart and microscopic photo topped out at a temperature of 700 degrees. I also found nothing indicating the proper temperature to anneal brass cases of 900 to 1100 degrees nor what the color range would be for that temperature.

 

[Webster]

I received my gas fuelled annealing machine today and have been playing around with it.

The recommended time in the flame is between 7 and 8 seconds. At 7 seconds the neck (i.e. mouth to the beginning of the shoulder) glows red for an instant. Is this an indication of the correct time or am I over annealing?


Many thanks in advance.

I would definitely stay below any red color. You should still get stress relief and some anneal at 5-6 seconds.

 

[Lou Murdica]

Unless you’re sending them out and having them hardness tested after you’re done you’re wasting your time.
buy a amp .
You’re better off not annealing with gas and just shoot them.

 

[riflewoman]

Appreciate the link to that study and after skimming through the 66 page document I found nothing to support your assertions especially when every chart and microscopic photo topped out at a temperature of 700 degrees. I also found nothing indicating the proper temperature to anneal brass cases of 900 to 1100 degrees nor what the color range would be for that temperature.

The article I quoted lists their temperatures in degrees Celsius.
700 C = 1292 F. 350 C = 662 F. Units matter.

 

[riflewoman]

Here is a scale which includes heat colors

https://www.rbcompany.com/files/rb/files/resources/MELTING-POINT-OF-METALS.pdf

 

[Bob L.]

Here is a scale which includes heat colors

https://www.rbcompany.com/files/rb/files/resources/MELTING-POINT-OF-METALS.pdf

Excellent! I have been looking for this chart for months.

 

[rwj]

Having also spent a lot of time researching cartridge brass annealing, I found the chart below most informative. Regrets that I’m unable to cite its origin. FWIW... my parameters are 750 degrees F for 1-2 seconds...

 

[CaptainMal]

Now I use a metronome to time but stop when my eye "thinks" there might be a slight red showing at the case mouth. For most of my Lapua BR cases it's around 7-8 seconds rotated in a single torch flame. Each flame pattern will be different but for start and testing, time a "for sure" red start and then back down a second or so to get to the "think" stage.