Annealing. KISS

[Rodney]

I feel the need to point out that a load developed on brass annealed every time can shoot significantly different in unannealed brass. Extraction forces for different levels of neck hardness can be significantly different. So if the pictures you guys are posting are of loads that were developed on brass annealing every time and you're shooting that same load in unannealed brass its not a fair comparison. After a cartridge is fired two or three times its hardness plateaus and sizing and seating becomes more consistent.

So in my opinion a load developed on brass that has reached the hardness plateau should be able to compete with brass annealed (correctly) every time. The down side to this is useless shots to harden the dang stuff and higher risk of split necks if chamber is a little sloppy.

Can anyone tell me what the real measurable effects of "over annealing" are? Are we worried about turning necks into accordions when seating or is it really only case head softening we are concerned with?

links for reference.

https://ballisticrecreations.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Ryan-Stevenson-Dissertation.pdf

Annealing Brass - Science vs Myths

There is an approach that some of us less educated people use that is based around "does it work when I do this". I have been annealing brass for over 40 years, as mentioned earlier, some was the caveman method. I got acceptable, sometimes even great results on work hardened brass using the...

www.snipershide.com

I over annealed some 6mm Creedmoor brass and the shoulder rolled out on me. It’s the only time I’ve done that but didn’t use Aztec, just the online chart for that brass. Live and learn.

 

[Oso]

Just make sure none of your cases have live primers. Lol.

I learned.... I always wear earmuffs when annealing range brass.

 

[D-4297]

I think if your system works great for you , that's a good thing . But there aren't enough hours in a week for me to be able to keep up with my brass prep using your method . That's why I have a Anealeez . I could not even begin to consider doing 2-300 cases a week by hand .

 

[Metal God]

Mine shoot better. Wonder what you did wrong?

Nobody needs to do anything "wrong" to get different results . When your directions are heat until flame changes and necks glow a color . That is all very subjective and based on others seeing the same thing you see . Not to mention them having the same torch/flame/temp and spin speed . Ok so I just gave 5 or 6 things that can be different then what you had in your set up and you ask what they did wrong ? Maybe the question should be how did you explain/teach it wrong ?

 

[Gargoyle]

Nobody needs to do anything "wrong" to get different results . When your directions are heat until flame changes and necks glow a color . That is all very subjective and based on others seeing the same thing you see . Not to mention them having the same torch/flame/temp and spin speed . Ok so I just gave 5 or 6 things that can be different then what you had in your set up and you ask what they did wrong ? Maybe the question should be how did you explain/teach it wrong ?

I like your depth. However, I am not questioning the person, just the process. You come at me as if I taught this member something before this post. Anachronistic. Time and speed matters not, just the end result of the flame on the brass. Brands of brass have different properties, that it known. PPU cases anneal differently than Lapua. However, regardless of brass, when the flame changes color and the neck goes cherry from the top to the bottom/shoulder junction, you're done. It really is that simple.

 

[bozo699]

I like your depth. However, I am not questioning the person, just the process. You come at me as if I taught this member something before this post. Anachronistic. Time and speed matters not, just the end result of the flame on the brass. Brands of brass have different properties, that it known. PPU cases anneal differently than Lapua. However, regardless of brass, when the flame changes color and the neck goes cherry from the top to the bottom/shoulder junction, you're done. It really is that simple.

I’m guessing your a metallurgist
Wayne

 

[Gargoyle]

I’m guessing your a metallurgist
Wayne

Haha, not even close. I'm not a ballistician either, but I can still shoot pretty dang good. A lot of instances aren't about why something works, It's the understanding of how something works.

 

[Metal God]

Time and speed matters not, just the end result of the flame on the brass.

First I did not mean my last post to come off as snarky , that was not my intent .
That said , I disagree to a point . Maybe time and speed matter not to you but my test showed it does matter . In my test I did however observe the flame color change around the same time my temp indicator melted . However that was only with a high heat flame ( full power ) . When flame/torch turned down and spin slowed down I was not only able to reach the desired temp with out the flame changing color . In those conditions there are no anneal marks on the case as well .

This pic shows the 450* tempilaq melting just below the shoulder which my test showed was around 800* at the neck . Note no flame discoloration or anneal mark on the case .

This isn't to say your way is not working for you or others , only that what you see is not always what you get . I have found that simply saying look for a flame color , case color or anneal marks can mean nothing if those trying that method are not using the exact same setup as I am . I've found stating a temp to reach is the best way to explain where one needs to be as far as final result . This takes out all the possible variables that someone else may not be considering when they try to anneal .

 

[Gargoyle]

I disagree to a point , maybe time and speed matter not to you but my test showed it does matter . In my test I did however observe the flame color change around the same time my temp indicator melted . However that was only with a high heat flame ( full power ) . When flame/torch turned down and spin slowed down I was not only able to reach the desired temp with out the flame changing color . In those conditions there are no anneal marks on the case as well .

This pic shows the 450* tempilaq melting just below the shoulder which my test showed was around 800* at the neck . Note not flame discoloration or anneal mark on the case .

This isn't to say your way is not working for you or others , only that what you see is not always what you get . I have found that simply saying look for a flame color , case color or anneal marks can mean nothing if those trying that method are not using the exact same setup as I am . I've found stating a temp to reach is the best way to explain where one needs to be as far as final result . This takes out all the possible variables that someone else may not be considering when they try to anneal .

That is all very informative.

 

[urbanrifleman]

Like I said... voodoo.

 

[Gary in MD]

I’m thinking some guys need a machine because of time limitations.
Some need one because “the other guys on the internet” have one and say you need it.
Some guys use one because they just aren’t competent or skilled enough to do it with a simple torch.
No need to judge others by your own lack of time or talent though . LOL

 

[Gargoyle]

I think if your system works great for you , that's a good thing . But there aren't enough hours in a week for me to be able to keep up with my brass prep using your method . That's why I have a Anealeez . I could not even begin to consider doing 2-300 cases a week by hand .

You bet. However, it takes 35 minutes to do 300 cases by my method. You certainly are a busy guy!

 

[jimmymac]

Like I said... voodoo.

C'mon now! You know darn well that you have to anneal, weigh powder charges to two decimal points, sort your brass by weight then volume, sort your bullets by weight and then sub lot them by BTO, seat your primers to a specified depth and get your shoulder bump variance down to less than .0005 in order to get the quarter minute groups you already shoot to that same quarter minute.

Honestly, you really need to get with the program. It only takes 6 hours to load up 20 rounds.

 

[darkangel_r2]

Like I said... voodoo.

Its not voodoo. Most people just don't have the tools required to measure the results directly without just shooting the stuff. An arbor press with a force dial can measure peak seating force. Some other additions can plot force and ram travel which allows total work done to be calculated which I think is the measurement we should likely care more about to predict consistent performance. More work to seat the bullet takes more work to unseat the bullet. Less is less. More work to unseat more pressure higher velocity. Less work less pressure less velocity. It can be measured and quantified.

Masters can do it by touch. I can't. So I just shoot the ammo quality I can produce with the tools I currently have and learn other important factors in shooting accurately like estimating wind, consistent handling of the rifle, ect... and when I think I can shoot the difference I consider upgrading my equipment.

AMP Press | Bullet seating press

Delivers precision Force over Distance measurements when seating bullets

www.ampannealing.com

RSI - LoadForce Neck Tension Meter

System to Measure Neck Tension and Felt Recoil

www.shootingsoftware.com

 

[jthor]

Ohhhhh, man. I am quite the skeptic. I had a batch of 4-5 times loaded brass that the seating force was so strong I blamed it on RCBS and called them for help. No help from them. Discovered flame annealing and that same brass went back to normal and consistent seating pressure. I also did an annealed and not annealed group test. Annealed won. I am skeptical of these high dollar machines for a task that can be done so simply cheap. (Team Brad!)

There’s no need to be a skeptic on the high end annealers like the AMP. Day to day it is going to give the most consistent annealing results.

A human, torch, drill and socket can most certainly be used to anneal brass, but it’s not going to be the most consistent flame annealer out there due the biggest contributing factor with timing and placement of the flame, the human controlling that. Flame annealing machines that place the brass in the same spot in the flame, spin the case and time the cases time in the flame will be the most consistent flame annealers.
Past that induction annealers have the ability to be the most consistent annealers: DIY GinaErick annealer or the Annie. I say have the ability to be the most consistent because if you do not set up the induction coil in the same spot between switching cartridges and then switching back, your timing will be different. AMP just makes it stupid easy to be consistent and the reason you need a separate pilot for almost every cartridge is because placement in the induction field is very important.

 

[darkangel_r2]

First I did not mean my last post to come off as snarky , that was not my intent .
That said , I disagree to a point . Maybe time and speed matter not to you but my test showed it does matter . In my test I did however observe the flame color change around the same time my temp indicator melted . However that was only with a high heat flame ( full power ) . When flame/torch turned down and spin slowed down I was not only able to reach the desired temp with out the flame changing color . In those conditions there are no anneal marks on the case as well .

This pic shows the 450* tempilaq melting just below the shoulder which my test showed was around 800* at the neck . Note no flame discoloration or anneal mark on the case .

This isn't to say your way is not working for you or others , only that what you see is not always what you get . I have found that simply saying look for a flame color , case color or anneal marks can mean nothing if those trying that method are not using the exact same setup as I am . I've found stating a temp to reach is the best way to explain where one needs to be as far as final result . This takes out all the possible variables that someone else may not be considering when they try to anneal .

Okay so rifle brass is 70% copper and 30% zinc. Both of those burn blue green. When we see yellow flame change I think we are seeing carbon shot residue burning as that can ignite at 600ish and burns yellow orange. From what I have seen from some of eric cortinas recent tests it may be okay to heat each neck individually until it just starts to turn red as that is a fairly consistent temp marker for the same lot of brass. Some lower temp tempilaq closer to the case head would tell me if thats okay to do or not.

 

[Woofie]

I use the torch and drill method with .50BMG cases since they won't fit my Annealeze. Bought the caseholder from Little Crow. Otherwise, I have to say I am happy with my Annealeze and won't be rushing out to spend $1,000 just to anneal my cases. My sense is I could better spend that money elsewhere in terms of getting rounds on target.

 

[Big Mc]

I feel the need to point out that a load developed on brass annealed every time can shoot significantly different in unannealed brass. Extraction forces for different levels of neck hardness can be significantly different. So if the pictures you guys are posting are of loads that were developed on brass annealing every time and you're shooting that same load in unannealed brass its not a fair comparison. After a cartridge is fired two or three times its hardness plateaus and sizing and seating becomes more consistent.

So in my opinion a load developed on brass that has reached the hardness plateau should be able to compete with brass annealed (correctly) every time. The down side to this is useless shots to harden the dang stuff and higher risk of split necks if chamber is a little sloppy.

Can anyone tell me what the real measurable effects of "over annealing" are? Are we worried about turning necks into accordions when seating or is it really only case head softening we are concerned with?

links for reference.

https://ballisticrecreations.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Ryan-Stevenson-Dissertation.pdf

Annealing Brass - Science vs Myths

There is an approach that some of us less educated people use that is based around "does it work when I do this". I have been annealing brass for over 40 years, as mentioned earlier, some was the caveman method. I got acceptable, sometimes even great results on work hardened brass using the...

www.snipershide.com

For the most part annealing will make your brass last longer . Just my two cents Tommy Mc

 

[Clancy]

I don’t think you could properly anneal 300 cases in 35 minutes by hand, especially overheating them like @Gargoyle.

Even if you could, the results would be inconsistent, as can be seen in the original photo posted in this thread.

HOWEVER, the process only has to be good enough to satisfy the owner of the rifle and equipment, which I think has been met in this case.

I use a benchsource. It’s good enough for me. I would rather not anneal than use a torch and socket, but I’m not about to spend over a grand on an AMP either. So, Benchsource it is.

 

[Bc'z]

I don’t think you could properly anneal 300 cases in 35 minutes by hand, especially overheating them like @Gargoyle.

Even if you could, the results would be inconsistent, as can be seen in the original photo posted in this thread.

HOWEVER, the process only has to be good enough to satisfy the owner of the rifle and equipment, which I think has been met in this case.

I use a benchsource. It’s good enough for me. I would rather not anneal than use a torch and socket, but I’m not about to spend over a grand on an AMP either. So, Benchsource it is.

It takes me about 10-12 minutes to do 50 cases. I have noticed a huge difference in sizing and on target performance vs not using a torch and socket.