Convenience and I would have to think consistency, if it runs its cycle and shuts off with its own logic i would have to say it removes the human error portion that would go with removing a casing from a flame or salt bath manually based on a timer. I know alot of annealing machines have a process in which they remove the casing from the flame and would make them very consistent as well. No open flame or molten salt is a huge plus.
annealing 223 brass ?
- Thread starter rebs
- Start date
Convenience and I would have to think consistency, if it runs its cycle and shuts off with its own logic i would have to say it removes the human error portion that would go with removing a casing from a flame or salt bath manually based on a timer. I know alot of annealing machines have a process in which they remove the casing from the flame and would make them very consistent as well. No open flame or molten salt is a huge plus.
The only way to go.
Liven The Dream
Gold $$ Contributor
Mike’s
Works Well !
Works Well !
Jdne5b
Gold $$ Contributor
You got that right. The #1 best part is convenience.
rebs
Gold $$ Contributor
The accuracy dropped off and I was trying to find out why so I talked to a few top shooters and was told I need to anneal my brass because of over 10 reloadings on it. I loaded some once fired brass and the accuracy was back. So I need to anneal or get more once fired brass. I shot 300 yd F class matches and 200 yd bench rest matches. The 223 brass I got from you is some of the best brass I have had.
Ok , get one of the machines if you can . They will give you a much more consistent cases resulting in more consistency on paper . I anneal with the torch and drill method but I’m only looking to relieve stress and extend case life . If you’re looking for accuracy and perfect consistency the machines are the way to go .
I have lots of info on the torch and drill method. I’ve done a good amount of testing and feel I can be relatively consistent but not as good as the machines are . I’ll PM you with info if you’d like but I’d recommend at minimum you use tempilaq which is a temperature indicator on the case to stay as consistent as possible if you do the torch and drill method. this product melts when it reaches a specific temperature . this allows you to pull the case from the heat as the cases reach the correct temp .
750* inside the neck or 450* below the shoulder on the outside case body . I much prefer 450* on the outside , sometimes cleaning the 750 out of the necks can be a pain and if you are looking for accuracy I would not want anything messing with my bullet hold/release .
I have lots of info on the torch and drill method. I’ve done a good amount of testing and feel I can be relatively consistent but not as good as the machines are . I’ll PM you with info if you’d like but I’d recommend at minimum you use tempilaq which is a temperature indicator on the case to stay as consistent as possible if you do the torch and drill method. this product melts when it reaches a specific temperature . this allows you to pull the case from the heat as the cases reach the correct temp .
750* inside the neck or 450* below the shoulder on the outside case body . I much prefer 450* on the outside , sometimes cleaning the 750 out of the necks can be a pain and if you are looking for accuracy I would not want anything messing with my bullet hold/release .
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Cemetery21
NRA Life since 1975
In my case, it was to prolong the life of brass during the 2008 era component shortage. Between me and 2 prairie dog buddys, we had close to 10,000 rounds of fireformed brass that had seen many firings. My AI brass was splitting necks of 10-15% each firing. After annealing, it has all been fired 3 times without a single split neck. Has it or will it ever pay for the machine? I don't know, but I don't worry about running out of brass now. What's it worth to not worry?? I don't know that either.
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RegionRat
Gold $$ Contributor
Another thing to consider is to know your velocity and seating force.
The work hardening of necks is easy to understand. As kids we learned the effects by bending a paper clip back and forth enough to get a sense of the hardening and eventual failure. Brass is similar in that the grain structure changes with stress or heat, but can be annealed to recover the hardness value that tends to make for better cartridge accuracy.
If you know that the velocity change is to blame, and that the neck tension is the root cause, then you can have better odds that annealing should get you back to where you want to be. Sometimes this work hardening isn't really the root cause, however seeing your velocity average drift or having the SD/ES go out of control is a good clue. This makes a chronograph an important debugging tool. Do we know the velocity stats are correlating with the accuracy problem?
Another way to know what is going on, is to seat with a small hand arbor press and dies like the Wilson in-line style seater. These small arbor presses can be fitted with a force gage that indicated the neck tension is or is not under control. This seating force would also be the definitive information to point you toward the neck tension being a contributor, but further testing will prove it. You don't have to commit to the hand arbor press processing, it is a good tool the develop the processing with some visibility of seating force.
Combined, this information may or may not point toward the work hardening of the necks as the root cause. You can often bypass all that by just testing with a fresh batch of brass.
The work hardening of necks is easy to understand. As kids we learned the effects by bending a paper clip back and forth enough to get a sense of the hardening and eventual failure. Brass is similar in that the grain structure changes with stress or heat, but can be annealed to recover the hardness value that tends to make for better cartridge accuracy.
If you know that the velocity change is to blame, and that the neck tension is the root cause, then you can have better odds that annealing should get you back to where you want to be. Sometimes this work hardening isn't really the root cause, however seeing your velocity average drift or having the SD/ES go out of control is a good clue. This makes a chronograph an important debugging tool. Do we know the velocity stats are correlating with the accuracy problem?
Another way to know what is going on, is to seat with a small hand arbor press and dies like the Wilson in-line style seater. These small arbor presses can be fitted with a force gage that indicated the neck tension is or is not under control. This seating force would also be the definitive information to point you toward the neck tension being a contributor, but further testing will prove it. You don't have to commit to the hand arbor press processing, it is a good tool the develop the processing with some visibility of seating force.
Combined, this information may or may not point toward the work hardening of the necks as the root cause. You can often bypass all that by just testing with a fresh batch of brass.
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PRICELESS !!!!
I mostly don't fl size my bolt gun 223 brass, I neck size only unless I start to get a stiff bolt close or bolt click upon opening. Then I'll FL size. I found that after 8-10 or so cycles, the neck was springing back during sizing, to the point that it measured just .0005 under the bullet seated diameter. There was plenty of neck tension though, and fairly consistent as far as seating force. But I knew the brass had become work hardened, and that is when I started annealing the necks using the salt bath method. At 5 seconds each, the job goes quickly and the results were such that i could feel and measure the difference in the sizing and seating ops.
The target also said it was the right thing to do, but I don't compete, except with myself.
Brass life is pretty much unlimited. I've tossed batches of 223 brass after two or three dozen load cycles, but only because I have plenty of once fired (from my gun) to choose from. Primer pockets were still tight and no split necks, so it was still good.
rebs
Gold $$ Contributor
Ok , get one of the machines if you can . They will give you a much more consistent cases resulting in more consistency on paper . I anneal with the torch and drill method but I’m only looking to relieve stress and extend case life . If you’re looking for accuracy and perfect consistency the machines are the way to go .
I have lots of info on the torch and drill method. I’ve done a good amount of testing and feel I can be relatively consistent but not as good as the machines are . I’ll PM you with info if you’d like but I’d recommend at minimum you use tempilaq which is a temperature indicator on the case to stay as consistent as possible if you do the torch and drill method. this product melts when it reaches a specific temperature . this allows you to pull the case from the heat as the cases reach the correct temp .
750* inside the neck or 450* below the shoulder on the outside case body . I much prefer 450* on the outside , sometimes cleaning the 750 out of the necks can be a pain and if you are looking for accuracy I would not want anything messing with my bullet hold/release .
Yes please do send me the data, I would appreciate it
I use the Annie. They won't let me play with fire inside the basement.
I have the AMP and love the convenience but more importantly their patented process ensures very consistent neck hardness. The newer Aztec process allows the user to analyze a sacrificial case from each lot to determine the optimum setting to reach the targeted hardness. The extensive research on their website supports their claims regarding more consistent hardness, longer case life and improved performance at the range.
nmkid
Gold $$ Contributor
How did you setup 2 torches or the MRB Annealer?
jepp2
Gold $$ Contributor
I am just using the 1 torch. With the rotation, I don't see any reason to need two. My time did increase from around 2.8 seconds to nearly 6 seconds, but I knew I was running hot with my two torch setup.
10XSHOOTER
Gold $$ Contributor
Ditto on the AMP
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