Annealers

[normmatzen]

As a career Analog IC design engineer with experience in Switched mode power supplies, I decided to build an induction annealer. After a bunch of destroyed MOS power devices I decided it isn't as much fun building stuff when I could be loading ammunition!
So, I bought an Annie (See above picture)
Since the Annie came out way before the AMP I looked at the AMP and decided the AMP was probably the best annealer on the market, but as I could easily find the right time for annealing all my cases I use, I figured my Annie at $450 was equally as good as the $1100 AMP! And, a LOT cheaper.

 

[Liven The Dream]

Went with Mikes ! I am retired No Rush . It warm my room in the Winter .
Had one small issue ( operator at fault ) Mike had a part in the Mail SAP.
Only one I ever had , it works for me .

 

[Webster]

Okay, the only 2 annealing methods that can give you the proper anneal are flame and induction. Salt Bath Annealing does not reduce the hardness, but does start the recovery phase for bottlenecked cases, essentially just stress relief. To suggest SBA is the best method is just plainly blissful ignorance on what’s happening during the annealing process we want. Three phases of annealing are: Recovery, Recrystallization and Grain Growth. You will reach Recovery, Recrystallization and Grain Growth with proper annealing for C26000 brass for reloading without the brass becoming dead soft. Not a single brass manufacturer will recommend SBA and I have also had extensive conversations with Peterson Brass as well as other manufacturers in regards to this topic. All recommend flame or induction. The only annealer that will give you the exact results top end brass manufactures anneal their brass to without questions is the AMP annealer. Now, I have built my GinaErick induction annealer and have done HV testing in the past and I was lucky enough to have found the correct setting for my 7RM brass to reach 98HV hardness using the 750F Templiaq method and letting it melt just a tad below the shoulder. This meant the neck was well above 750F when the Templiaq melted below the shoulder as induction transfers heat rapidly. So, go with what the brass manufactures recommend on this and use either a flame based annealer or induction whether it is the the DIY GinaErick annealer, Annie or AMP.


https://www.academia.edu/21283133/Recrystallization_Behavior_of_70_30_Brass

There’s also a US Army study in regards to annealing I wish I had the link to, but it also concurs with the optimal Hardness Vickers for annealing.

Why would you think salt bath annealing cannot soften brass? You should be able to get a salt bath up to at least 1000F in the proper melting pot. The brass doesn't know what the source of heat is. Difficult to d/l the article. However I believe most of data in the article was with 30 minutes at temperature. Some data lower times.

Added Later:
When large brass parts are annealed in industry they are lookong for more than a 3-4 drop in hardness units. A torch won't work, induction not possible or practical. They use a furnace at constant temp and specific times.

 

[L W P]

After lot's of research I think the only annealer that actually does what it says is the AMP. Now if I could just convince myself that I need one. I have a Annealeez but when the wheels wore to the point where the cases no longer would spin I stopped using it. Honestly I really don't miss it enough to bother ordering new wheels. I like the BenchSource carousel style a for the propane based. Look in the classifieds you might find a deal on a used machine

Replacement wheels are fairly cheap, or try gluing some type of material on your existing wheels for traction. I think the new wheels come with a coating or tape on them, by the way they look?

 

[jthor]

Why would you think salt bath annealing cannot soften brass? You should be able to get a salt bath up to at least 1000F in the proper melting pot. The brass doesn't know what the source of heat is. Difficult to d/l the article. However I believe most of data in the article was with 30 minutes at temperature. Some data lower times.

With salt bath annealing you’re assuming there is enough heat transfer. If you ask anybody who offers Salt Bath Annealing kits for metallurgy reports on brass they annealed you’ll be quick to find out none of them have it. Variable surface area of Bottlenecked cases seems to act as a heat-sync and draws the heat away from the neck. AMP themselves did a report on SBA and concluded also the SBA was not properly annealing and recommended either using flame or other induction unit if you can’t afford an AMP. They also challenged anyone who disagreed to run SBA Brass through similar tests and have them tested by a certified metallurgy lab and the results would be the same.

FIY torches burn at over 5,000F.

 

[Webster]

With salt bath annealing you’re assuming there is enough heat transfer. If you ask anybody who offers Salt Bath Annealing kits for metallurgy reports on brass they annealed you’ll be quick to find out none of them have it. Variable surface area of Bottlenecked cases seems to act as a heat-sync and draws the heat away from the neck. AMP themselves did a report on SBA and concluded also the SBA was not properly annealing and recommended either using flame or other induction unit if you can’t afford an AMP. They also challenged anyone who disagreed to run SBA Brass through similar tests and have them tested by a certified metallurgy lab and the results would be the same.

FIY torches burn at over 5,000F.

A propane torch doesn't reach 5000F. You don't see annealing reports by people that sell salt because furnaces are far more practical for most brass users. Salt pots of any size can be very dangerous, fumes and explosions if you get a small amout of moisture in them. Cartridge brass annealers are a small group. I used high temp salt baths for a few years at work. They are a problem and expensive by EPA rules to dispose of the salt. We used to put a water hose in the cooled down pots and dissolve the salt and let it go down the sewer drain.

 

[Ccrider]

How many of you guys who are saying salt bath does not work have actually tried it, charting the differences in Es with and without using it?

 

[JimSC]

Replacement wheels are fairly cheap, or try gluing some type of material on your existing wheels for traction. I think the new wheels come with a coating or tape on them, by the way they look?

I mentioned the wheel issue on another thread and on the recommendation of another poster this afternoon I took a piece of 80 grit sanding belt and glued it on the wheel with contact cement. Damn thing works better than new but I am not sure if it is worth the bother to go back to using it. Accuracy and velocities seem to be fine just the way they are, if it ain't broke etc

 

[MikeMcCasland]

How many of you guys who are saying salt bath does not work have actually tried it, charting the differences in Es with and without using it?

FWIW - In Litz's limited Annealing testing (Modern Advancements Vol. 2) he was unable to draw any correlation to annealing and ES.

 

[Ccrider]

You

FWIW - In Litz's limited Annealing testing (Modern Advancements Vol. 2) he was unable to draw any correlation to annealing and ES.

Lots is probably correct. But this does not account for the changes in brass from firing cycle to cycle. As the brass changes from each firing, the neck tension you receive from the same bushing changes. I think that annealing keeps the brass in the same hardness area.

 

[JimSC]

How many of you guys who are saying salt bath does not work have actually tried it, charting the differences in Es with and without using it?

the purpose of annealing is to improve the malleability of the metal which means being able to deform the metal permanently without breaking, it has nothing to do with the elasticity of the metal. The modulus of elasticity is the same for all types of brass from extra hard to fully annealed which means that the compression for a annealed vs non annealed neck theoretically should be equal.

That's the scientific reason I am skeptical. The common sense reason is if I can keep the ES below 20 and SD's below 10 without annealing with cases that have double digit reloads is it worth the bother and expense. That being said I would love to see AMP sponsor a test using a test barrel and machine rest and give us some real world results in terms of case life expectancy and velocity consistency of annealed vs non annealed

 

[Gina1]

Mike...
If your handy and know a little electronics , you may want to take a look at the GinaErick annealer.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/induction-brass-annealer-redux.3908353

If you got to this thread, be sure to go to "page 1" There are over 1,000 pages.
Also check it out on youtube.

 

[Mike7.62]

Holy smokes! I never realized that there was this much to it. I looked at the AMP, and yes it is very nice, but the cost is prohibitive for me at just under $2000 all up, not including pilots. I like the price of the flame versions, and the Bench Source looks very well made, but the one that impressed me with the ease of use and the price was the Annie. With an all up price of $785 that includes two different coils, the lift, radiator, etc, it seems like the best bang for the buck. I believe that it is the one I will be purchasing. Thanks again for all of your inputs.

 

[jthor]

A propane torch doesn't reach 5000F. You don't see annealing reports by people that sell salt because furnaces are far more practical for most brass users. Salt pots of any size can be very dangerous, fumes and explosions if you get a small amout of moisture in them. Cartridge brass annealers are a small group. I used high temp salt baths for a few years at work. They are a problem and expensive by EPA rules to dispose of the salt. We used to put a water hose in the cooled down pots and dissolve the salt and let it go down the sewer drain.

My bad I meant 3600F. So let’s clarify something further will a Salt Bath eventually anneal a bottlenecked case? Sure. Will it Flash Anneal, which is what we are all trying to do. No, it will not. SBA is a huge assumption with zero scientific backing for our application of flash annealing. “I put my brass in something hot so it must have annealed” is what SBA sounds like.

 

[JimSC]

My bad I meant 3600F. So let’s clarify something further will a Salt Bath eventually anneal a bottlenecked case? Sure. Will it Flash Anneal, which is what we are all trying to do. No, it will not. SBA is a huge assumption with zero scientific backing for our application of flash annealing. “I put my brass in something hot so it must have annealed” is what SBA sounds like.

JThor that about sums it up and here is why. I read the AMP report on salt bath annealing https://www.ampannealing.com/articles/52/salt-bath-annealing--does-it-work-/ and I believe that the problem SBA has is that is that the differential temperature between the salt and the target temperature is too low. In conduction heating the heat (energy) flows from the hot to cold. The greater the differential temperature the faster the transfer of energy, and as the two objects approach equilibrium the slower the transfer. That will cause the walls of the case to overheat before the neck shoulder area reaches a high enough temperature for any significant stress relief to occur. As the AMP report states the case acts as a heatsink.

A tight hot flame or a narrow focused induction heater will heat the neck/shoulder up to recrystallization temps before the case walls get hot enough for any significant changes to occur

Annealing is dependent on both time and temp and the higher the temp the faster crystallization occurs. A salt bath would eventually anneal the neck but the case would be unusable afterward because the tensile strength of the walls and case head would be dangerously low

 

[normmatzen]

Mike 7.62,

I bought my Annie very soon after they went on the market and I lived through some teething problems with the Annie. I was VERY well supported by the manufacturer!
Also, I tried the ferrite cored coil, some home made coils and finally the water cooled one. I wouldn't waste money on anything other than the water cooled coil. See the photo of my set up a couple comments above and you will see my water cooled coil, Home Depot "water reservoir" with ebay aquarium pump (about $3.00). The pink color is from some humidifier anti-bacterial additive.
I can't say enough about my Annie! I think that practically it is the best buy for annealing as well as being reliable for many years! And, it is small and doesn't have a flame!

 

[Mike7.62]

Norm,

I was going to order two of the coils, one small and one large, as I have some BP cartridges and some belted mags that might need the larger of the two. I also agree with you on the best buy and no flame aspects, especially around my shop, where flammables abound. A flame annealer would have had me locate it in the house or basement, which is a good 75 yards from the shop, making it inconvenient for the operation. Thanks for the information on your experiences with the Annie.

 

[JimSC]

just a question for the home grown induction coil and Annie users, is it hard to focus the heating in a narrow band at the shoulder/neck?

 

[jthor]

just a question for the home grown induction coil and Annie users, is it hard to focus the heating in a narrow band at the shoulder/neck?

Not at all! The biggest problem with the DIY annealer is actually getting the neck to heat up too fast. So common practice has been to take the neck out of the center of the coil to where the top of the neck is a tad below the top of the coil.

 

[JimSC]

Not at all! The biggest problem with the DIY annealer is actually getting the neck to heat up too fast. So common practice has been to take the neck out of the center of the coil to where the top of the neck is a tad below the top of the coil.

I am just looking toward the future at the moment but do you determine where the focus by using a iron rod and watching the glow. I imagine once you know where the focus is it is not hard to build a case holder that will lock the case into the correct position

I might go to 6 dashers in a year or so and would want to anneal after case forming and after a lot of thought decided induction would give the most consistent results. AMPS, Annies and scratch builds all have their appeal

good thread, informative