My batch of lapua 6br brass has around 30 or so firings each and now when I full length resize, some chamber easy and some are hard to close the bolt on which I think is due to spring back from lack of annealing. Also accuracy at 200 yards has gone away. Some shots are way off maybe due to the different brass dimensions. Should I try annealing them or just start with new brass ? Also, how bad could 30 grains of varget harm new brass on the first firing. I read to use around 28 grains first but it's a long way to the range to fire of the 28 grain load and would just rather use my accurate load.
Anneal or throw out
- Thread starter jaybray
- Start date
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Have you checked the shoulder to head dimensions of your hard to close brass, and checked it against fired and easy to close? Perhaps you could do some sorting and resizing of the tight ones. Tight and easy will not group as tight when shot together. For PPC cases those with a high number of firings take a different die setting than those with just a few, do you set your die for bump each time that you load, or has it been set one way for a long time?
Is your FL die set up correctly using a comparitor? Whidden gunworks make a nice one similar in style to the RCBS precision mic. Set your FL die up so that it sizes 1 thou less than a fired case. This will give you a slight shoulder bump and cases will go in and out of the chamber easy. Most FL dies never set up right with just the instructions.
If your primer pockets are still tight, get the cases annealed. Only anneal the necks though as if you anneal the base of the case you will soften metal that needs to stay hard. It will help even out your neck tension.
If your primer pockets are still tight, get the cases annealed. Only anneal the necks though as if you anneal the base of the case you will soften metal that needs to stay hard. It will help even out your neck tension.
I first measure the fired cases with the hornady tool and then set the full length bushing die to bump back 2 thousandths from there and then chamber the first one I measure. Then I just resize them all at the same setting. Maybe this is my problem. I do have a few brass mixed in that have less firings also so maybe some of the higher round count brass needs to be sized down a little more. I have never run into this before. Primer pockets are still good and my only option to anneal is with the drill and hand torch method.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
I would check the bump or all cases, and resize the ones that need it, with a suitable die setting. I would also probably keep this group together. It would be interesting to hear what if any difference in accuracy this produce. Beyond that, I would consider doing a little experimentation with different bushings. I try to shoot my batches of brass in rotation to keep the number of firings per case the same.
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Recently there has been a thread started by a fellow who bought a brand name annealing machine, set it up as carefully as he knew how to, and evidently cannot get back the accuracy he lost from over annealing 500 Lapua cases, despite trying to retune his load for his new, greatly reduced neck tension. What ever you do about annealing, do it to a few cases, and test the result by shooting groups.
I just de capped and measured all my fired brass. Most were 1.158 but a few were 1.157 and 1.159. So should I bump each size group by themselves and keep them this way? Also for what ever reason from the day I got this rifle built It will not re chamber a once fired case. If a brand new case is fired and I try to re chamber the empty and close the bolt I would have to use a hammer. The case has to be bumped back before I can even think of closing the bolt. Strange.
So I annealed 15 rounds with the drill and torch method by spinning the cases at the neck for six seconds in the flame let cool then loaded them up and fired them at 200 yards. I also loaded 10 brand new cases with the same charge and seating depth and fired them also. The annealed ones were all over the place, like inch and a half for five and the never fired brass shot around a half inch. I guess the old cases are junk. One thing to add is the old empty cases after firing cannot be re chambered without a mallet but the new once fired cases can no problem. The old ones chambered fine after resizing back 2 thou. Any ideas why?
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
The heads of your old cases have likely swollen slightly. Just for fun, size an old case that will not chamber without great effort after being fired, and seat a bullet so that it fills the neck. Chuck the case in a cordless drill, by its neck, and support the underside of the head while you take a very light cut with a fine file or coarse diamond hone, held parallel with the CL of the case, starting with the top of the extractor groove, so that the diameter in this area is reduced by about .002 after being polished with some 0000 steel wool. Then pull the bullet, resize, load and fire the case, and check how the fired case chambers.
The trick with the annealing is to have some way to gauge what you are doing. If you had annealed sets of say three cases for three four five and six seconds, you might start to zero in on a time that would make the cases more uniform without destroying their accuracy. If you also striped one from each set from shoulder to head with 500 degree Tempilaq then you would have a way to better recreate the amount of annealing that was done, given that differences in flame adjustment and distance are also important variables, that are not regulated by time. Friends have gotten good accuracy from annealed cases, that became more uniform in bullet seating force, and shoulder bump in the process. The trick is doing the right amount of annealing for your cases. Thinner necks would be the trickiest. I am not sure that very thin ones can be done with the required degree of precison. They would probably heat so fast as to make the timing super critical, but of course this is just a guess.
The trick with the annealing is to have some way to gauge what you are doing. If you had annealed sets of say three cases for three four five and six seconds, you might start to zero in on a time that would make the cases more uniform without destroying their accuracy. If you also striped one from each set from shoulder to head with 500 degree Tempilaq then you would have a way to better recreate the amount of annealing that was done, given that differences in flame adjustment and distance are also important variables, that are not regulated by time. Friends have gotten good accuracy from annealed cases, that became more uniform in bullet seating force, and shoulder bump in the process. The trick is doing the right amount of annealing for your cases. Thinner necks would be the trickiest. I am not sure that very thin ones can be done with the required degree of precison. They would probably heat so fast as to make the timing super critical, but of course this is just a guess.
Raythemanroe
Bullet Whisperer
Primer pockets okay? Why not try annealing? May want to sort like Boyd said..
Ray
Ray
Raythemanroe
Bullet Whisperer
Some of us fire ten 
Ray
Ray
My annealing experiences over the last 40 years or so--for what they are worth--or less:
When I started annealing I took the advice of a couple of seasoned veterans and it has served me well in resetting the ductillity of the neck/shoulder of my cases. I'd like to be able to say I went right to work using their advice and had great success and lived happily ever after but---sadly--for a while--enter the internet "experts" and their internet "wisdom" that cost me a lot of time, money and sunburn on the scalp where I had lost hair from worry over--wait, was that too much? I guess so. But it felt that way at the time..........
1. a single propane torch and a drill or any other device will not throughly reset the neck/shoulder structure. Being basically a poor person for most of my life it seemed like a good idea to try the cheap way first--I just wasted money on whimpy torches. Slow cooking is either without effect or if carried on too long, ruinous, except in BBQ.
2. Quenching or standing cases in water while heating merely stops the process from working--not only on the area of the head, but all over--additionally this is not a controlled process and results in uneven heating of the brass--this seemed like logic to me but I still had to try it--they were right--I gave up on the idea and stopped listening to the water method men.
I was told (by the good guys) that--depending upon the cartridge size and weight and how hard you work your brass ( a custom FL die built with the same reamer that did the chamber of your barrel is the best and easiest on the brass ) (if set up right) you should anneal every 5 to 7 FL sizings. I rarely ever neck size anymore after matching barrels and FL dies proved to be a winning idea in more ways than one. I know there are people who say they buy a few boxes of brass and use that all season without annealing and they may really do that--it does not work for me--there are other folks who anneal after every match--I think those are mainly the 1000 yard guys.... Both camps have some very successful BR shooters in them....way out of my league, but still....Anyway, I have no idea what the effect of a propane torch and drill would be on 30 times fired brass, but I suspect it would not be an improvement--as the OP said, I believe.
I don't shoot as many rounds at a sitting as I used to since I am not competing any more, so I gave my Ken Light (2 torch) machine to my son and I now use an induction heater made by Induction Innovations. There may be other brands of the torch type machines that look like my old two torcher ftom KL and offer that option. There may also be other induction heater makers who offer units that do the same job.
I found out that If you really want to know how much you are cooking the necks of your cases you can do a very easy test that will tell you the TRUTH about what you have done to your brass. ---If--you have reset the structure of your neck -- you have reset it through and through--not just on the surface--a slow heat spreads out on the surface first --following the line of least resistance...if the metal has been cooked through and through--it will be the same color on the inside--as the outside--in the area heated past 650 to 700 degrees put your temp-l-stick or lac --on the inside of the necks--or--if you have none then heat a case until the color changes and the compare the inside and outside --in the case of necks that have been carbon stained by shooting, you can peel off a layer of carbon and brass with a neck reamer built for that cartridge.
I buy a lot of Lapua brass for various cartridges and have been told by a Lapua rep that they do not polish their brass after annealing--so you can still see the annealing discoloration. To my frustration, they would not tell me anything much more about their annealing process--it seems to be a deep dark secret.
Anyway, I look at a lapua case-- I see the annealing discoloration on the neck/shoulder. I look inside--the inside is the same color as the outside--in that area. I cut the case in half lengthwise-- the case is discolored inside and out in the neck/shoulder area and yellow brass colored the rest of the way to the head. When I do this same thing to my freshly annealed and air cooled cases, they look the same these days--neither overcooked nor undercooked. The discoloration goes away as you work and/or polish the brass.
I never did the same thing for my cases when I was using the 2 torcher--I had not met many internet "experts" -- so I asked my son to do the test--he says they cook the same as my inductor heater---but he got back to me awfully quick--that boy was never quick about doing anything I ever asked him to do in his life---so--his report could be suspect--or not--people do change-----yahrite--
When I started annealing I took the advice of a couple of seasoned veterans and it has served me well in resetting the ductillity of the neck/shoulder of my cases. I'd like to be able to say I went right to work using their advice and had great success and lived happily ever after but---sadly--for a while--enter the internet "experts" and their internet "wisdom" that cost me a lot of time, money and sunburn on the scalp where I had lost hair from worry over--wait, was that too much? I guess so. But it felt that way at the time..........
1. a single propane torch and a drill or any other device will not throughly reset the neck/shoulder structure. Being basically a poor person for most of my life it seemed like a good idea to try the cheap way first--I just wasted money on whimpy torches. Slow cooking is either without effect or if carried on too long, ruinous, except in BBQ.
2. Quenching or standing cases in water while heating merely stops the process from working--not only on the area of the head, but all over--additionally this is not a controlled process and results in uneven heating of the brass--this seemed like logic to me but I still had to try it--they were right--I gave up on the idea and stopped listening to the water method men.
I was told (by the good guys) that--depending upon the cartridge size and weight and how hard you work your brass ( a custom FL die built with the same reamer that did the chamber of your barrel is the best and easiest on the brass ) (if set up right) you should anneal every 5 to 7 FL sizings. I rarely ever neck size anymore after matching barrels and FL dies proved to be a winning idea in more ways than one. I know there are people who say they buy a few boxes of brass and use that all season without annealing and they may really do that--it does not work for me--there are other folks who anneal after every match--I think those are mainly the 1000 yard guys.... Both camps have some very successful BR shooters in them....way out of my league, but still....Anyway, I have no idea what the effect of a propane torch and drill would be on 30 times fired brass, but I suspect it would not be an improvement--as the OP said, I believe.
I don't shoot as many rounds at a sitting as I used to since I am not competing any more, so I gave my Ken Light (2 torch) machine to my son and I now use an induction heater made by Induction Innovations. There may be other brands of the torch type machines that look like my old two torcher ftom KL and offer that option. There may also be other induction heater makers who offer units that do the same job.
I found out that If you really want to know how much you are cooking the necks of your cases you can do a very easy test that will tell you the TRUTH about what you have done to your brass. ---If--you have reset the structure of your neck -- you have reset it through and through--not just on the surface--a slow heat spreads out on the surface first --following the line of least resistance...if the metal has been cooked through and through--it will be the same color on the inside--as the outside--in the area heated past 650 to 700 degrees put your temp-l-stick or lac --on the inside of the necks--or--if you have none then heat a case until the color changes and the compare the inside and outside --in the case of necks that have been carbon stained by shooting, you can peel off a layer of carbon and brass with a neck reamer built for that cartridge.
I buy a lot of Lapua brass for various cartridges and have been told by a Lapua rep that they do not polish their brass after annealing--so you can still see the annealing discoloration. To my frustration, they would not tell me anything much more about their annealing process--it seems to be a deep dark secret.
Anyway, I look at a lapua case-- I see the annealing discoloration on the neck/shoulder. I look inside--the inside is the same color as the outside--in that area. I cut the case in half lengthwise-- the case is discolored inside and out in the neck/shoulder area and yellow brass colored the rest of the way to the head. When I do this same thing to my freshly annealed and air cooled cases, they look the same these days--neither overcooked nor undercooked. The discoloration goes away as you work and/or polish the brass.
I never did the same thing for my cases when I was using the 2 torcher--I had not met many internet "experts" -- so I asked my son to do the test--he says they cook the same as my inductor heater---but he got back to me awfully quick--that boy was never quick about doing anything I ever asked him to do in his life---so--his report could be suspect--or not--people do change-----yahrite--
Raythemanroe
Bullet Whisperer
I don't get it, if you heat your brass until a desired temp wouldn't the result be freshly annealed brass? I know this is the internet with commandos everywhere, but doesn't physics work the same for all of us?
Ray
Ray
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
What changes is not physics but the success with which we communicate, and the requirements for the physical properties of cases, that may loaded quite differently. If a case does well on targets, and the load has good ES numbers, then as far as I am concerned, the process is correct, and no matter what, if these are not right, then it is wrong. As far as seniority of experience goes, until and well after Ken Light enlightened (yes that is a pun) us about annealing, the world was, and in some cases still is in the relative darkness of the stand them up in a pie pan of water in a darkened room/ dull red glow mode of ignorance. What we are doing is not full annealing. There is no standardize term for it, but I know it when I seat bullets, and measure bump. The seating force and amount of bump become significantly more uniform, without the elasticity of necks being destroyed as it is when a full anneal is done. Perhaps someone's loads shoot well with dead soft necks, but I have not experienced that, nor has anyone else that I know. On the templilaq thing, we pointed the torches at the middle of of the necks, and striped the cases (at first with .300, 400, and 500 degree) from the outside corner of case shoulders down to the head, to see how the heat was moving down the case. After that initial session, when we managed to set the time so that the annealing was satisfactory, we discontinued the two lesser temperatures, and just did our setups with the 500 degree, so that the time in the flames darkened it to about where the color is on a new Lapua case. I wouldn't worry too much about duplicating factory annealing. We originally got the two torch (not a Light) machine because of inconsistent shoulder bumps of Winchester 7mmWSM and .338 Lapua cases. After they were annealed, neck tension was still good, and the shoulder bumps varied by only .001. The Lapua brass only had one or two firings on it when we discovered the problem. I might also mention that not once during the whole successful process did we bother looking inside of cases to observer annealing colors.
Raythemanroe
Bullet Whisperer
So in short you used templilaq until you got the desired effect? I guess this could be repeated without a lab and expensive equipment?
Everyone work hardens brass on a different level and not everyone has the same lot of brass. I'm just a firm believer in verify.
Consistent Flame position, Regulated pressure and timing of templilaq verified desired effect would be in my eyes what tools one needs to anneal.. Other then between the ears..
Ray
Everyone work hardens brass on a different level and not everyone has the same lot of brass. I'm just a firm believer in verify.
Consistent Flame position, Regulated pressure and timing of templilaq verified desired effect would be in my eyes what tools one needs to anneal.. Other then between the ears..
Ray
BoydAllen
Gold $$ Contributor
Once we knew what the templaq darkening looked like when the anneal was as we wanted, we replicated that every time we set up the machine, using the same case, that was cooled,cleaned and restriped. Because the flame settings can vary from use to use, having a way to fine tune the annealing time, based on the actual heat transmitted to the case is a real advantage. Six seconds with one flame would not give the very same results as six seconds with another, slightly different valve setting or torch position.
Raythemanroe
Bullet Whisperer
Makes sense
Ray
Ray
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