And Another HBR Question:

[Pete Wass]

How many active HBR shooters would vote to increase the weight limit of HBR rifles to 10.5LBS?

Pete

 

[rjtfroggy]

I would, why not it has already been changed to allow "Varmint Hunter" so 6's can shoot in Hunter class.

 

[AlNyhus]

How many active HBR shooters would vote to increase the weight limit of HBR rifles to 10.5LBS?

Pete

Pete, I didn't do a count of hands at the NBRSA Score Nationals at Raton in 2024...but my recollection is that roughly 30% voted in favor of moving the weight up to 10.5 lbs.

I would, why not it has already been changed to allow "Varmint Hunter" so 6's can shoot in Hunter class.

It should be a simple matter for the IBS Hunter and Varmint Hunter competitors to bring a motion forward for any changes. It is done at the annual meeting, if I remember correctly from my IBS days.

 

[Pete Wass]

Pete, I didn't do a count of hands at the NBRSA Score Nationals at Raton in 2024...but my recollection is that roughly 30% voted in favor of moving the weight up to 10.5 lbs.

It should be a simple matter for the IBS Hunter and Varmint Hunter competitors to bring a motion forward for any changes. It is done at the annual meeting, if I remember correctly from my IBS days.

Well, years ago a petition was presented at an IBS Winter Meeting to limit varmint hunter to 6MM or less and it failed. At that time there was a half dozen women shooting VH and wanted less boom to contend with. That petition failed and I voted no but in retrospect I am sorry I voted no. 6's were always permitted in Varmint hunter, in fact the 100 yd record, still standing, was set with a 6MM. The numbers of 6 power shooters declined dramatically after that.

There never is a simple solution to anything when so many opinions become involved.

If only someone would come forward who would repair 6X scopes. I looked into it last winter and then said to me, your 80 fool and think you can do the same stuff you did at 30, FOOL. but that could be a solution. Truly, I think it is possible to fix some of the older scopes to make them hold POI.

 

[Pete Wass]

I would, why not it has already been changed to allow "Varmint Hunter" so 6's can shoot in Hunter class.

During my 26 years of 6 power shooting there has always been VH and Hunter classes in IBS. Sometime before my time VH was created to allow for any caliber to be shot but I don't know when that was.

 

[jackieschmidt]

Pete, I didn't do a count of hands at the NBRSA Score Nationals at Raton in 2024...but my recollection is that roughly 30% voted in favor of moving the weight up to 10.5 lbs.

It should be a simple matter for the IBS Hunter and Varmint Hunter competitors to bring a motion forward for any changes. It is done at the annual meeting, if I remember correctly from my IBS days.

Al, I do not shoot HBR, but as an NBRSA member and Match Director, I want to see the organization grow, especially among the younger crowd.

The big thing about getting anything passed by the Membership at a National Event is actually getting enough shooters there to vote. National Events are usually attended by really die hard shooters in any particular Discipline. Many of these “die hard shooters” don’t wish anything to change.

At Raton, while that agenda item was being discussed, I listened to many of these shooters talking among themselves. The conversations DID NOT go……”we need to modify our rules, recognizing that the current state of scopes has reached a critical point”.

It went more like…..”Let them eat cake”.

While listening to some of these, my thoughts were, “when the last Competitor leaves the range, he can turn off the lights”.

Nobody is saying do away with the 6x power rule. Everybody knows that is the most important defining factor between a HBR rifle and a VFS rifle. The idea is to add a little weight to the rifle so shooters who wish to compete in HBR will not have to be at the mercy of something that has been out of production for close to 15 years.

VFS is growing in part because it is so easy to build a competitive VFS rifle. Coming up with the parts is just a phone call away or visit to your favorite Gunsmith.

The only limit is your pocketbook.

 

[brcman]

Most of the shooters at a national score event are are in my age group, meaning 75+ and eyes are not what they used to be. This is why I sold my hunter class stuff in 2024. Us old guys with old eyes are now shooting VFS. This is where many hunter shooter went.

 

[AlNyhus]

Al, I do not shoot HBR, but as an NBRSA member and Match Director, I want to see the organization grow, especially among the younger crowd.

The big thing about getting anything passed by the Membership at a National Event is actually getting enough shooters there to vote. National Events are usually attended by really die hard shooters in any particular Discipline. Many of these “die hard shooters” don’t wish anything to change.

At Raton, while that agenda item was being discussed, I listened to many of these shooters talking among themselves. The conversations DID NOT go……”we need to modify our rules, recognizing that the current state of scopes has reached a critical point”.

It went more like…..”Let them eat cake”.

While listening to some of these, my thoughts were, “when the last Competitor leaves the range, he can turn off the lights”.

Nobody is saying do away with the 6x power rule. Everybody knows that is the most important defining factor between a HBR rifle and a VFS rifle. The idea is to add a little weight to the rifle so shooters who wish to compete in HBR will not have to be at the mercy of something that has been out of production for close to 15 years.

VFS is growing in part because it is so easy to build a competitive VFS rifle. Coming up with the parts is just a phone call away or visit to your favorite Gunsmith.

The only limit is your pocketbook.

All very good points, Jackie.

Increasing the weight by 8 oz. wouldn't hurt those that have good 6X scopes now...they'd get to add 8 oz. to the gun. New shooters to the HBR class could pick from a variety of workable scopes that run in the 20-23 oz. range and easily make weight w/o sacrificing barrel contour. Nobody is ahead, nobody is behind. Seemed like a win/win.....

 

[longbow]

I really miss shooting HBR...but had to drop out when I had 3 neck verts fused with a plate. If I got caught on my recoil I REALLY felt it a day later . So I sold em and switched to VFS. Now my eyes at 72 with 6X just isnt gonna happen anyway. Why would 1/2 a pound matter now days to ad to HBR. Our Matches here are about dead while VFS has lots of "old" shooters.....

 

[Pete Wass]

Most of the shooters at a national score event are are in my age group, meaning 75+ and eyes are not what they used to be. This is why I sold my hunter class stuff in 2024. Us old guys with old eyes are now shooting VFS. This is where many hunter shooter went.

Heck, I'm 81 and building new Hunter gun. I had both cataracts removed a number of years ago but my vision is creeping downward. I got to where I couldn't see flags with my left eye, it was time. I've seen guys do all kinds of things to shoot BR. One lad who used to shoot with us used opposing mirrors. Just gotta want to do it is all and not be concerned about not shooting 250's

 

[ebb]

I shot one of Pete's hunter rifles back years ago at Jon's place. I was amazed at the quality of the 6X optics. I looked through a Leupold 3-9 set on 9 at the same target side by side with Pete's and the picture was way better with the 6 power. I could not find a new one back then. but I am puzzled as to why adding weight will help the problem? Is there a 6X scope good enough to use that weights more?

 

[ebb]

Sorry I missed Al's post. What companies make the newer 6X scopes?

 

[Pete Wass]

Sorry I missed Al's post. What companies make the newer 6X scopes?

There are small variable scopes that might work but all of them are too heavy for a 10 pound rifle without extraordinary efforts to remove weight. At isn't so much about weight that makes Hunter gun shooting "Different", its the 6x scope requirement and the narrower forend.

 

[ebb]

At the point I shot yours I was shooting the Indian Hammock "matches" with a Ruger 308 VT. I shot some really nice short range BR rifles. I wound up with an old Hall vintage BR rifle in 6PPC. Between Capt. Bob's, Jon's rifles and yours I kind of got hooked. Jon had a 30BR, and a 22 waldog that both would really shoot. He also had a hunter BR that got lost in the shuffle.

 

[AlNyhus]

Sorry I missed Al's post. What companies make the newer 6X scopes?

There hasnt been a dedicated fixed 6 power target scope made for about 15 years. The last ones were Leupold's ,Competition Hunter, the Weaver #49995 CT6 (aluminum tube) and Sightron's 6HBR. Burris stopped making the second generation scope, the HBR2, about the same time. The Burris HBR2 has 1/5" adjustments, a European style forcus eye piece and the spring loaded Posi Lock turret w/o the locking screw. It was their version of the Tucker conversion.

 

[ebb]

I think the rifle of Pete's had the Sightron 6X scope on it and i was totally impressed with it.

 

[Al Elliott]

I think we need to push this conversation forward. I am in favor of raising the weight limit for the NBRSA Hunter Class to 10.5 pounds. Not for my benefit generally but to make it easier for new Hunter class shooters to make weight with variable scopes.

The changes in the past to the Hunter class rules did not require new records and made it easier to get into the games. No magazine holding two rounds; no 45.5 grain limit case capacity allowed us to not have to make brass; and custom actions allowed. None of these changes required new records but make it easier to compete. Most old timers began their Hunter Class shooting with Remington 700 rifles and as changes were allowed we gradually went to custom actions. That didn't limit the growth of the Hunter class shooters.

I also believe that the Score Committee should solicit input for changes or additions to the score shooting game to promote and encourage new shooters. As far as I can tell, nothing has been put forward by the Score Committee regarding suggested changes or soliciting input. If I remember, the changes to the rules must officially come through the Rules Committee and be submitted to the NBRSA board before it can be brought to the Score Meeting at the Nationals meet. Their rules are not defined as well as they should be.

I also think that the vote for the Hunter Class changes should come from the Hunter class shooters exclusively ( or at least from those who would shoot the class). How many Varmint for Score shooters at the '24 Nationals voted in the weight change proposal who have no intention of shooting the class?

Why don't we promulgate rules for a Factory Class and have it recognized by the NBRSA?
That would certainly open up the bottom end of the Hunter class and allow new shooters an easier way into the score shooting.

Let's keep exploring ways to promote and preserve the Hunter Class Score shooting.

Al Elliott

 

[Pete Wass]

Factory rifles are allowed in IBS matches but there are usually one or two once in awhile. I don't think the majority of shooters care rather or not there is a class other than VFS. Most people don't like the challenge of the lo powered scope. HBR is THE real challenge in Benchrest. Muck more difficult to do it well repeatedly. I guess I've chosen to do it for that reason.

 

[rjtfroggy]

Factory rifles are allowed in IBS matches but there are usually one or two once in awhile. I don't think the majority of shooters care rather or not there is a class other than VFS. Most people don't like the challenge of the lo powered scope. HBR is THE real challenge in Benchrest. Muck more difficult to do it well repeatedly. I guess I've chosen to do it for that reason.

I do it for the same reason. I have a couple VFS guns but only shoot the hunter gun at matches, after my shoulder is completely healed I may go back to 2 guns.

 

[Pete Wass]

I do it for the same reason. I have a couple VFS guns but only shoot the hunter gun at matches, after my shoulder is completely healed I may go back to 2 guns.

I have owned quite a few VFS rifles. Just sold the last one I had put together because I was mostly loaning it to others to shoot. If I want to shoot VFS I can put a bigger scope on one of my HBR rifles and shoot LV with it. Back in the day, I shot two HBR rifles for quite a few years when both 6 X classes were contested. I struggled with the difference in magnification of the two scopes to do very well with two scope classes.