AMP settings vs time?

[rsbhunter]

Just curious if anyone has done a test or checked to see if the AMP numbers for annealing a case correlates to a time ? In other words, does the time go up or down with the setting numbers? I know it depends on the brass neck thickness, etc, and thus the "Aztec". I understand that it's ALOT more complicated than just saying, 2.8 seconds for a 243 Lapua case, but just doing some research...Thanks for any info...rsbhunter

 

[piie]

Ive never really noticed an appreciable time difference between say a 6.5cm amd a 458 Lott, but remember, the AMP can also boost the amps…

 

[rsbhunter]

That explains alot...I wasn't aware of that feature...that is what makes it so great at annealing....rsbhunter

 

[piie]

Well, its not a user setting/feature, but I would imagine that it is an option, you can either keep the heat temp constant and spend more time in the heat, or you can increase the heat (amps) and spend less time heating.

I’ll try to measure next time I anneal, but that may be a while…

Also, another important part of the amp is the depth each cartridge goes into the unit so that only the neck is exposed to the heat…thats why you have all the different pilots…

 

[PopCharlie]

I've tried timing the heat cycle, from the time I push the button until, it says it's done. For my .223, 6br and 6.5x47L, it's always 2.8 seconds. My 6br cases use a Amp code of 133 for "lot A" and 136 for the newer "lot B".
.223 is code 141 for all lots, 6.5x47L is amp code 157 for all lots.

PopCharlie

 

[swd]

Going from 6BRX to 6.5x55 Ackley the time is noticeably longer. I use Aztec codes for both.

 

[rsbhunter]

Thank you all for the great info...honestly, the people on this forum really are the best....to take the time to reply is more than alot of people are willing to do....and the well of information is bottomless.....Thank you all again.....I am considering getting a "mini inductor" off of Amazon and trying to make it work....I would love to have an AMP, but being retired, and buying bullets, $80.00 per k primers , hazmat , etc......expenditures get evaluated very closely...... Plus, I love projects.....will post back if I go that route and update....Thanks again, rsbhunter

 

[rsbhunter]

By the way, I have been using a flame annealer that I built, and have good results, shoulder bump and base to ogive are much more consistent. Seating pressure is also more consistent. I do believe that induction is alot more "repeatable" and believe I will see even better results.....I know it won't be as accurate as an AMP unit, but I only shoot local matches, and anything is an improvement over not doing any annealing...Thanks again, rsbhunter

 

[RegionRat]

and anything is an improvement over not doing any annealing

Food for thought... I hate long posts but this doesn't get pointed out enough...

When the cartridge is exposed to 55k PSI several times, the whole cartridge starts to change, but the necks in particular start at about 100HV and trend toward >150HV.

(The ratio of elastic to yield also changes with the cold work but we tend to only hear about HV because the tests for strength are very difficult but hardness pokes are easy.
There is a relationship between the cold work, yield strength, and hardness, so we use HV to track the brass but the yield strength is very important to performance and life.)

With "good" annealing you can keep that HV close to the 100 level and in theory keep the neck cold work level from drifting up, and in theory when done properly keep the batch variation small so that the neck prep gives a consistent result. (We won't derail this thread with the debate about the relationship between neck prep consistency and accuracy.)

When you don't anneal, the brass batch trends up in hardness value due to cold work but part of the question here that I am drilling down on is the consistency within the batch.

The firing and prep cycle may cause the average value to climb, but if you consider variation within the batch, many folks who do not anneal learn manage their case prep for the average trend in cold work as their brass changes and do just fine performance wise since the variation within the batch is still small.

Here is the rub....
If you don't anneal well, and your brass batch starts to get variation as a result, you would in theory be better off not annealing. If you anneal properly, the theory is you stay near that 100HV and maintain consistency, and better brass life and better accuracy as a result.

I am not trying to persuade you to anneal or to not anneal, but I am pointing out that bad annealing is in theory worse than no annealing if you allow it to cause a greater variation.

Since every context is different in terms of brass, chamber diameter, case neck prep process, etc., there is never a single answer to the question of annealing or not annealing, or even what kind of annealing.

Since it takes many cycles to fatigue the brass to the point of split necks, there is an additional question of the value of annealing in terms of brass life.

I will generally suggest you test by running your best process with one batch being annealed and the other batch not annealed and see how they run for say 10 cycles or more and then decide. I am all for annealing in the right context, but have seen folks frustrate themselves with annealing just as often as it has helped them. The difference is the variation in the results. YMMV

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

 

[rsbhunter]

Well, I don't have the means to test the hv of the cases before and after, but honestly, my seating pressure is alot smoother, and lower since I've been annealing, and my accuracy is approx 10-15% better. My set up is a dual torch setup with the case turning, and the flame cycle is adjustable to very small increments. Like stated, it's not an AMP unit, but it's not the cordless drill/socket/torch method. Although there again I can't knock that set up as I haven't tried it. If there were ribbons, or a prize table involved an AMP unit would be in my future, but for now, I'll use what I have....rsbhunter

 

[RegionRat]

Sounds like you are past the learning curve just fine if your groups closed down.

Merry Christmas!

 

[rsbhunter]

RegionRat, thanks, wish I had alot more knowledge than I do.....I think that even the set up I'm planning on will give much more exacting results, as the heat and time will be 99% repeatable. I'm real careful as to flame length , position, but........anyway, will update when I decide to put one together...MERRY CHRISTMAS to all ...rsbhunter

 

[Skeptic123]

Food for thought... I hate long posts but this doesn't get pointed out enough...

When the cartridge is exposed to 55k PSI several times, the whole cartridge starts to change, but the necks in particular start at about 100HV and trend toward >150HV.

(The ratio of elastic to yield also changes with the cold work but we tend to only hear about HV because the tests for strength are very difficult but hardness pokes are easy.
There is a relationship between the cold work, yield strength, and hardness, so we use HV to track the brass but the yield strength is very important to performance and life.)

With "good" annealing you can keep that HV close to the 100 level and in theory keep the neck cold work level from drifting up, and in theory when done properly keep the batch variation small so that the neck prep gives a consistent result. (We won't derail this thread with the debate about the relationship between neck prep consistency and accuracy.)

When you don't anneal, the brass batch trends up in hardness value due to cold work but part of the question here that I am drilling down on is the consistency within the batch.

The firing and prep cycle may cause the average value to climb, but if you consider variation within the batch, many folks who do not anneal learn manage their case prep for the average trend in cold work as their brass changes and do just fine performance wise since the variation within the batch is still small.

Here is the rub....
If you don't anneal well, and your brass batch starts to get variation as a result, you would in theory be better off not annealing. If you anneal properly, the theory is you stay near that 100HV and maintain consistency, and better brass life and better accuracy as a result.

I am not trying to persuade you to anneal or to not anneal, but I am pointing out that bad annealing is in theory worse than no annealing if you allow it to cause a greater variation.

Since every context is different in terms of brass, chamber diameter, case neck prep process, etc., there is never a single answer to the question of annealing or not annealing, or even what kind of annealing.

Since it takes many cycles to fatigue the brass to the point of split necks, there is an additional question of the value of annealing in terms of brass life.

I will generally suggest you test by running your best process with one batch being annealed and the other batch not annealed and see how they run for say 10 cycles or more and then decide. I am all for annealing in the right context, but have seen folks frustrate themselves with annealing just as often as it has helped them. The difference is the variation in the results. YMMV

Merry Christmas and Happy New Year!

I'm pretty sure that it was Lou Murdica who said in a recent video that if you don't use an AMP annealer - don't anneal. I suspect that what you are pointing out is his point as well. The AMP just guarantees consistency where as the others are more open to variance - not that it's impossible for them to do a good job.

 

[rsbhunter]

Well I punched the button and bought the parts for the YouTube video set up. I've thought about the amp system, and if I had the money and shot bigger matches , I'd probably have to go for one. But, then again all of the top shooters were using flame annealers before induction, and there were some records set and broken. As the saying goes " we don't know what we don't know". I saw improvement with flame annealing, if I can improve even just a little with induction, I'll be happy. rsbhunter

 

[RegionRat]

The AMP just guarantees consistency where as the others are more open to variance - not that it's impossible for them to do a good job.

More or less, yes...

AMP is more or less idiot proof compared to having the direct responsibility of actually controlling the variables of cartridge neck annealing in a hobbyist setting.

I am not a trust fund baby so I am completely sympathetic to the budget issues.

Some folks can take this on without question and do it very well regardless of method, and others are better off not doing it cause they don't have the ability.

Those who might screw up annealing, can still reload and shoot very well, so they need to hear that it is okay to skip it if they are not going to do it well.

By itself, skipping annealing will not hold you back as long as you understand the concept of work hardening in the necks and work around it.

Topics like annealing, wildcatting, gunsmithing, etc., can be skipped and you can still reload, make High Master, or win matches.

Annealing is optional, not mandatory. You can manage your reloading either way.

 

[piie]

More or less, yes...

AMP is more or less idiot proof compared to having the direct responsibility of actually controlling the variables of cartridge neck annealing in a hobbyist setting.

I am not a trust fund baby so I am completely sympathetic to the budget issues.

Some folks can take this on without question and do it very well regardless of method, and others are better off not doing it cause they don't have the ability.

Those who might screw up annealing, can still reload and shoot very well, so they need to hear that it is okay to skip it if they are not going to do it well.

By itself, skipping annealing will not hold you back as long as you understand the concept of work hardening in the necks and work around it.

Topics like annealing, wildcatting, gunsmithing, etc., can be skipped and you can still reload, make High Master, or win matches.

Annealing is optional, not mandatory. You can manage your reloading either way.

And that's why I bit the bullet and got the AMP - I also tried building my own, until I realised that even if I succeed, I would still sit with the issue of knowing when I actually annealed correctly so that I could perfectly re-create the settings next time for all my different cartridges.

The AMP gives me that confidence that I cannot screw it up unless I forget to use the correct pilot or accidentally mix up the aztec code. So now I only need to do 2 things correct when I want to anneal

Annealing is best done properly or not at all.