Amp annealer and inside neck lube

[goosepilot]

Just realized that after 2-3 rounds of reloading with varget and amp annealing lapua 6 dasher brass that my necks now need lubing inside the neck. I dont have this happening with n4350 and 6cm or h1000 and 7 blaser mag.

The last round of seating bullets was giving .001-4 depth issues. I had some rcbs case lube on hand so I tried swabbing with a Qtip. Right back to consistent .0005 seating as earlier leaving the carbon residue.

Another interesting observation was that originally I only had a set of redding competition shell holders and happened to use the +.010 holder for the annealer step. Then I got a normal shell holder dedicated for annealer but forgot to change it out until after annealing a 6 cases. So I decided to keep those 6 separate and compare to 6 with a standard holder. I've done this "experiment 2x today and it appears that the cases held higher up by .016 are more consistent at seating depth and have less ES/SD at the barrel according to my garmin. However 600 yds out at the shot marker yields nearly inverse results (albeit nearly the same speeds)

Going to test once more.

Any suggestions on lube for inside neck bullet seating?

Should I try reducing code on amp. I'm not running Aztec. Just set at 53 per amps chart online.

 

[Fire Dog]

Just realized that after 2-3 rounds of reloading with varget and amp annealing lapua 6 dasher brass that my necks now need lubing inside the neck. I dont have this happening with n4350 and 6cm or h1000 and 7 blaser mag.

The last round of seating bullets was giving .001-4 depth issues. I had some rcbs case lube on hand so I tried swabbing with a Qtip. Right back to consistent .0005 seating as earlier leaving the carbon residue.

Another interesting observation was that originally I only had a set of redding competition shell holders and happened to use the +.010 holder for the annealer step. Then I got a normal shell holder dedicated for annealer but forgot to change it out until after annealing a 6 cases. So I decided to keep those 6 separate and compare to 6 with a standard holder. I've done this "experiment 2x today and it appears that the cases held higher up by .016 are more consistent at seating depth and have less ES/SD at the barrel according to my garmin. However 600 yds out at the shot marker yields nearly inverse results (albeit nearly the same speeds)

Going to test once more.

Any suggestions on lube for inside neck bullet seating?

Should I try reducing code on amp. I'm not running Aztec. Just set at 53 per amps chart online.

If the reason you are not using the Aztec code I make the assumption that you have a Mark I as I do and can certainly recommend buying the upgrade…
To address your query, you can use Neolube #2 or make your own lube with some 100% Isopropyl alcohol & some ultra fine graphite that is used in the door lock puffer bottles.
Just mix a 1/8 to 1/4 teaspoon of the graphite with enough Isopropyl to get a watery mix in a small jar such as a baby food jar.
Apply the mix with a Q-tip to the inside of neck and by the time you have prepped 50 cases they will be dry with a ultra thin coating and ready to size/mandrel or seat bullets, the coating will still be enough to noticeably lower the seating force even if you use it first during sizing/neck expansion.
I wet clean with SS pins, then anneal, then size without the die expanding ball and mandrel the necks in a seperate to insure exact neck tension.
Originally I was dry neck lubing to stop the galling and brass deposit on the mandrel as well as not having an extra step of cleaning oily lube {which works perfectly but needs a seperate cleaning action} I found as a side effect that less force is now required to seat bullets and that means more consistent seating depth due to less variation in the friction between the bullet and the neck.

 

[L1986]

Are you brushing the inside of the necks with a nylon brush after annealing? If not this will definitely help you out. I have seen almost the opposite of your experience…the more cycles of annealing and brushing without ever cleaning the brass just wiping down the outside the slicker the inside gets but brushing is a necessity.

 

[Jager]

I'd recommend using the proper shell holders with the Amp Annealer. And, yes, a good inside neck lube (dry) makes a difference.

If you ever get the Amp Press, you'll be able to very quickly see why.

 

[Webster]

Just realized that after 2-3 rounds of reloading with varget and amp annealing lapua 6 dasher brass that my necks now need lubing inside the neck. I dont have this happening with n4350 and 6cm or h1000 and 7 blaser mag.

The last round of seating bullets was giving .001-4 depth issues. I had some rcbs case lube on hand so I tried swabbing with a Qtip. Right back to consistent .0005 seating as earlier leaving the carbon residue.

Another interesting observation was that originally I only had a set of redding competition shell holders and happened to use the +.010 holder for the annealer step. Then I got a normal shell holder dedicated for annealer but forgot to change it out until after annealing a 6 cases. So I decided to keep those 6 separate and compare to 6 with a standard holder. I've done this "experiment 2x today and it appears that the cases held higher up by .016 are more consistent at seating depth and have less ES/SD at the barrel according to my garmin. However 600 yds out at the shot marker yields nearly inverse results (albeit nearly the same speeds)

Going to test once more.

Any suggestions on lube for inside neck bullet seating?

Should I try reducing code on amp. I'm not running Aztec. Just set at 53 per amps chart online.

Annealing should not affect seating depth especially since AMPS should make them all the same hardness. Lubrication seems to solve the problem. This indicates to me that if you push harder the bullet probably goes a few thou deeper into the seater stem. Thus giving variation. This can only happen if the seater stem makes point contact on the bullet. You want the contact spread out a little bit so it doesn't slide after contact.

You must I.D. chamfer the necks. I would spin a nylon brush in the necks and give the neck i.d. a light coat of petroleum oil with a Q-tip. Also put some Losso or valve grinding compound in the seater stem, put a bullet in an electric drill and spin for a minute or so to get a wider contact with the seater. Does your seater leave a ring mark on the bullet where it pushes? A ring like mark on the bullet means the seater has a very small contact location with the bullet. There shouldn't be any sharp edges in the seater cup. I had a seater that left a sharp narrow gouge on Hornady 58 GR V-max bullets.

Some seaters have a very bad match to the bullet ogive shape.

 

[goosepilot]

Are you brushing the inside of the necks with a nylon brush after annealing? If not this will definitely help you out. I have seen almost the opposite of your experience…the more cycles of annealing and brushing without ever cleaning the brass just wiping down the outside the slicker the inside gets but brushing is a necessity.

Yes i brush after annealing on the rcbs rotory prep station down and up. But for whatever reason this dasher brass is coming out of annealer pretty clean where my 6cm and 7 blaser leaves it black.

 

[goosepilot]

Annealing should not affect seating depth especially since AMPS should make them all the same hardness. Lubrication seems to solve the problem. This indicates to me that if you push harder the bullet probably goes a few thou deeper into the seater stem. Thus giving variation. This can only happen if the seater stem makes point contact on the bullet. You want the contact spread out a little bit so it doesn't slide after contact.

You must I.D. chamfer the necks. I would spin a nylon brush in the necks and give the neck i.d. a light coat of petroleum oil with a Q-tip. Also put some Losso or valve grinding compound in the seater stem, put a bullet in an electric drill and spin for a minute or so to get a wider contact with the seater. Does your seater leave a ring mark on the bullet where it pushes? A ring like mark on the bullet means the seater has a very small contact location with the bullet. There shouldn't be any sharp edges in the seater cup. I had a seater that left a sharp narrow gouge on Hornady 58 GR V-max bullets.

Some seaters have a very bad match to the bullet ogive shape.

Well I've run two sets of 6 pieces of brass now through annealer. One set with stock holder and one set with +.010 holder. Done this 2 times. Lubed the inside necks. Seated 105 hybrids with forester micrometer seater. No changes on seater. Both times the brass annealed with +.010 holder seat exactly the same, about. 001 longer oal than stock holder pieces. The stock holder pieces seat deeper and less consistently +/- .0005. And sometimes requires seating then check to and seat again.

Seater stem does not contact tip of bullet. It contacts 1/4" or so down from tip. It only leaves a ring mark if seating pressure is too great.

Brass is prepped each firing on rcbs rotory station. Nylon brush, light inner and out chamfer, wire brush primer pocket.

Been doing it this way for 5ish years, just started with dasher last month.

I probably should do the lapping on all my seater just to spread out the contact area. All my loads are using bergers or similar shapes. 105 hybrids, 107 smk, 103 barts, 175, 180, 184, 195

I may try emailing amp just see if they have run into this. My cases are coming out of annealer weighing .04 grains lighter.

 

[Webster]

Yes i brush after annealing on the rcbs rotory prep station down and up. But for whatever reason this dasher brass is coming out of annealer pretty clean where my 6cm and 7 blaser leaves it black.

Don't understand some cases black. The color should only come from chemicals on the case. I anneal with a torch and never had a case turn dark.

It seems to make sense to me that seating depth variation can only come from how far you push the bullet into the case. A few thou variation isn't much. Is it possible it's just error in measuring? I have read that base to ogive measurements vary on every bullet in a batch. If the ogive is a little different on each bullet they will get pushed in different amounts. I need to reread ware you said some calibers were not a problem. Just throwing some thoughts out to think about. If the rifle shoots OK I wouldn't worry about it. The more things you measure the more things you will come up with that need fixing.

 

[goosepilot]

Don't understand some cases black. The color should only come from chemicals on the case. I anneal with a torch and never had a case turn dark.

It seems to make sense to me that seating depth variation can only come from how far you push the bullet into the case. A few thou variation isn't much. Is it possible it's just error in measuring? I have read that base to ogive measurements vary on every bullet in a batch. If the ogive is a little different on each bullet they will get pushed in different amounts. I need to reread ware you said some calibers were not a problem. Just throwing some thoughts out to think about. If the rifle shoots OK I wouldn't worry about it. The more things you measure the more things you will come up with that need fixing.

I'm talking the insides of necks. In my alpha 6cm cases and norma blaser brass after I anneal the inside of necks is black. The carbon from firing is still there. After I brush the carbon is still there.

On my dasher lapua brass after annealing the black is almost completely gone and you can see brass color. The scale indicates. 04 grains has been lost in tge process. This brass had 1-2 firings on it before I bought it. I also bought the amp annealer from the same guy although he didn't have his notes for what setting he used after he moved. I had no issues annealing and reloading this for the 1st time. The 2nd time I think I started having seating issues. The 3rd time I definitely had issues. No carbon left.

I think there are many factors/benefits in annealing. If an amp annealer gets different results by changing depth of case insertion by .0016, what happens in flame units??

 

[Fire Dog]

Are you brushing the inside of the necks with a nylon brush after annealing? If not this will definitely help you out. I have seen almost the opposite of your experience…the more cycles of annealing and brushing without ever cleaning the brass just wiping down the outside the slicker the inside gets but brushing is a necessity.

I forgot to mention brushing the necks after annealing, that definitely helps remove any debris and smooth the interior. I use a bore brush spun up to make a single pass in and out of the neck.
Doing that and lubricating the inside of the necks has resolved several issues that have been problem in the past.
Collapsed necks when using a mandrel or stretched neck/shoulder if pulling the neck sizing ball out of the case if not using a mandrel.
Galling the interior of the neck and brass deposit on the mandrel.
Variances in seating pressure.
I have used several versions of dry lube to various degrees of success but none have worked as well as applying a solvent based graphite lube that dries and leaves a film only on the inside of the neck and nothing to clean off the outside such is the case of dunking a case neck into a tub full of dry lube and media balls.

 

[Fire Dog]

I'm talking the insides of necks. In my alpha 6cm cases and norma blaser brass after I anneal the inside of necks is black. The carbon from firing is still there. After I brush the carbon is still there.

On my dasher lapua brass after annealing the black is almost completely gone and you can see brass color. The scale indicates. 04 grains has been lost in tge process. This brass had 1-2 firings on it before I bought it. I also bought the amp annealer from the same guy although he didn't have his notes for what setting he used after he moved. I had no issues annealing and reloading this for the 1st time. The 2nd time I think I started having seating issues. The 3rd time I definitely had issues. No carbon left.

I think there are many factors/benefits in annealing. If an amp annealer gets different results by changing depth of case insertion by .0016, what happens in flame units??

A flame unit just will never be as accurate and repeatable as the AMP and using the dedicated pilot that they make after considerable research would be recommended.
You can change the intensity of the amount of annealing by adjusting the programming and that will be more accurate than trying to adjust the depth of the case between the induction plates.
If you have any particular questions or problems you can contact AMP directly by email, they are very responsive to any query and not just send you to some “Answers to commonly asked questions” area of their site though there is such a section that is worth reading.
Again, my recommendation that you up grade your machine with the Aztec program. It will help take the guess work out of annealing your particular brass.
Even different lots of brass from the same manufacturer can have slightly different settings.