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Ammo Question/Tuner Question

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Bullet timing....Bullet exit....Bullet stable/unstable....Vibrations....All meaningless.

Bullet hitting the paper....Priceless.

You either make the bullet hit where you want or you don't and how you get there doesn't matter. All the basic procedures are very well known and long established. Stay on the road well traveled and you will avoid the rabbit holes.
Ultimately having the bullet go where you want is the final goal. But that has to do with the person in the mirror.
To travel that well travelled road you still need a capable vehicle. Using the most common and popular, proven vehicle is the best way to avoid those rabbit holes.
I agree with that

Lee
 
Trolling???? For a guy without a f…ing clue and zero knowledge about the topic you ‘ve already burned bridges for vastly experienced guys trying to help you count me on that list.
Lol, ohhhhhh nooooo say it ain't soooooo. Of course I have almost zero knowledge about the topic, that is why I asked the question?
You're a bright one aren't you Mr. Grinch
 
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take this for what it is worth, there are a couple of obvious flyers (387 and 391 due to cheap ammo) but you can see the groups change shape and move above and below the waterline. All shots taken were with the flag tails hanging. Ignore the MOA this was shot at 50 not 100. I'll fix it later

tuner 1 click.jpg
 
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take this for what it is worth, there are a couple of obvious flyers (387 and 391 due to cheap ammo) but you can see the groups change shape and move above and below the waterline. All shots taken were with the flag tails hanging. Ignore the MOA this was shot at 50 not 100. I'll fix it later

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So @JimSC this is a similiar test as @gunsandgunsmithing. 1 click of the tuner can change the position of where the groups land. (like a sine wave) For those of us still new to the sport, does this mean 388 would be the ideal setting. For me groups 384 and 385 seem the smallest.
 
Ultimately having the bullet go where you want is the final goal. But that has to do with the person in the mirror.
To travel that well travelled road you still need a capable vehicle. Using the most common and popular, proven vehicle is the best way to avoid those rabbit holes.
I agree with that

Lee
If you are using cheap ammo every shot is suspect.
@VLNBYR you are opening a whole other can of worms lol, please don't get them started on the "cheap ammo"
 
take this for what it is worth, there are a couple of obvious flyers (387 and 391 due to cheap ammo) but you can see the groups change shape and move above and below the waterline. All shots taken were with the flag tails hanging. Ignore the MOA this was shot at 50 not 100. I'll fix it later

View attachment 1508264
I hope that Mike chimes in. He is looking for certain things when the rifle comes in and then goes out of tune that I don’t see on this target.

I will say that the few shots on the target shown are not enough to tell you much about where the right tune setting is. They may depict how 8 groups would look shot at the same tuner setting.
 
I hope that Mike chimes in. He is looking for certain things when the rifle comes in and then goes out of tune that I don’t see on this target.

I will say that the few shots on the target shown are not enough to tell you much about where the right tune setting is. They may depict how 8 groups would look shot at the same tuner setting.
Wait I am confused now. aren't all of the numbers at the bottom different settings?
 
I have no idea what others look for I just go back to my centerfire days and Tony Boyles book. What I look for is the groups changing from vertical to horizontal in shape and moving above and below the waterline. Cheap ammo or expensive I can tell the instant that bullet hits the target whether it is a flyer , or wind related. For example, I missed the wind shift on my first flag on 390 so I waited it out then shot an extra round. Same with the 2 obvious flyers on 387 and 391

I was using 387 and 388 when the temps were 10F lower, I may try 384 and 385 again next week depending on the temperature.
 
take this for what it is worth, there are a couple of obvious flyers (387 and 391 due to cheap ammo) but you can see the groups change shape and move above and below the waterline. All shots taken were with the flag tails hanging. Ignore the MOA this was shot at 50 not 100. I'll fix it later

View attachment 1508264
Hey Jim, I think I see what is going on here. 384 seemed like a good group, I would say 385 is a little better. After that I notice a vertical string at 386 and horizontal strings through 390. I may even make an argument that 389 wasnt too bad.
I am assuming that you have tested at other settings previously and this is what you came up with as the best setting.
What information do we get from vertical and horizontal spreads, bad settings, bad match with the ammo, etc?
 
take this for what it is worth, there are a couple of obvious flyers (387 and 391 due to cheap ammo) but you can see the groups change shape and move above and below the waterline. All shots taken were with the flag tails hanging. Ignore the MOA this was shot at 50 not 100. I'll fix it later

View attachment 1508264
Not bad at all! That said, there are a couple of things I do a little differently but you're all over it!

First off, I prefer 5 shot groups for rf and 3 shot groups for cf. With MY rf tuners, I find that it's very predictable that anti-nodes will appear at about 8-10 mark intervals. Anti-nodes are top and bottom of a sine wave and where you want to see small groups...that will hold up as well as possible. So, in order to encapsulate the full nodal cycle with MY tuner, moving MINE two marks at a time, I find that happens within about a full revolution (30 marks...2 at a time)..or 15 five shot groups moving the tuner 2 marks at a time...with MY tuner on a typical rfbr contour bbl. Skipping ahead here, your test looks like to me that you should move no more than 3 marks of YOUR tuner at a time on your rifle. I'd shoot more to confirm that unless you have already done that. I determine this by group shape and poi, as well as the predictability of the group shapes happening in succession. I'll post a pic of what I look for at the end. of my post and will explain in more detail as long as things can stay on track and as time allows. Bottom line here is that I'm literally looking for specific shapes at specific intervals AND specific POI. All combined, it's extremely significant statistically or I wouldn't be able to predict them! And it's on Jim's target!!

Second, I think you really need to carry the test out further to see ALL of what I look for but there's a lot in your target, as is.
Next, every tuner is a bit different and part of moving only 1 mark at a time until you know this is to establish a quantifiable value on the target for each adjustment increment of the tuner. To do that, you need to know what group shapes you're looking for and in what sequence they will happen. Great job! It's in your target although one is a little less clear than I'd like...but it's there. As I said above, looks to me like the groups I look for are happening at about 3 mark intervals on your gun and tuner.

Enough for now. Gotta work but give me a minute and I'll post an abbreviated target I just drew up to show the group shapes and intervals. Again, MY tuner may very well have different intervals than others. The test helps quantify that! I suggest running the full test, not this abbreviated one. Again, with my tuner, 15 five shot groups moving 2 numbers at a time. With a different tuner, you'll have to quantify the value of each mark first, looking for that straight vert group after a sweet spot at top or bottom.
 

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Now, see the first three groups from the left? The progression is in tune(at top), to straight vertical and then to diagonally up and to the right. Those are the three main things to look for, to me. Now, see why I think Jim's tuner interval is 3 marks apart?

I would bet they happen at 383,386 and 389. Wish we had 383 to confirm but it's reasonable to assume what it will do for the time being.
 
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This is the tuner that I have on my Rifle can anyone help me identify, so I can start running more tests?
 

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Now, a quick quiz...
On my tuner, the numbers get bigger as you move the tuner out, away from the receiver. Knowing that and based on the target pic that I posted, which way and how far would you move the tuner if you get a group that is diagonal, leaning up and to the right?
FWIW, that group shape is not wind induced from a rh twist bbl.
 
If you continue the test all the way out, it'll repeat but the next sweet spot will be at the bottom of the bbl swing and hence, will have a very slightly lower poi. Jims gun shows it pretty well but some guns do show this more clearly than others at 50 yards.

Again, I think I mentioned this...With my tuner, it's typically 8-10 marks between sweet spots. So, I'd expect it to come back into tune at about number 16 but will have a little lower poi and no...wait for it...positive compensation can happen at the bottom. Different rabbit hole for now. Lol!

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