Alittle help starting over

[Art Dirindin]

Now that I wish to begin shooting at medium range out to 600 yards I gave my reloading process a serious evaluation and I realized my present reloading methods are likely not sufficient to achieve the level of accuracy I will need to accomplish my new shooting goal of becoming deadly proficient out to 600 yards.

I am having no small amount of difficulty deciding how best to spend my limited funds on new reloading equipment in my attempt to take the quality of my reloads to a level above where I'm at presently.

My purpose at this point is simply to become a proficient shot on deer and elk out to 600 yards, as I simply don't have the time or the funds to enter into competitive shooting, as family needs will always come before all else.

I have been reloading for over 30 years and have a solid grasp on the basics of reloading. What I wish from the members here is advise on what additional tools that are considered as "must have" VS ones that are not.

I have strictly 100% factory rifles and would like to buy a Savage 12FV in .308 to use as my platform to learn medium range shooting out to 600 yards. I don't wish to use any of my hunting rifles as they are all magnums and I don't exaggerate one bit when I say recoil is a non factor for me, but a .308's barrel will last MUCH longer than a 300wsm or 7mmstw will. I chose the Savage as it's a VERY affordable proven accuracy performer and it's as simple as it gets to change out a barrel and there is a large number of AM parts available for the rifle if I wish to go with any upgrades like a better stock.

My present reloading equipment list is:
RCBS Rockchucker II press
PACT powder dispenser and electronic scale
RCBS 10-10 and 5-0-5 balance beam scales used to weigh EVERY powder charge
Lee Collet dies
Forster BR bullet seating dies
Redding body only sizing dies
Lee EZ-Trim
Hornady Priming tool
K&M primer pocket uniforming tool
Lyman VLD chamfering tool
RCBS flash hole de-burring tool
Stony Point COAL tools
Starret digital micrometer my 1 and only measuring tool
RCBS 110V multi station brass preparation I use to polish case mouths and inside of case necks

Please keep in mind tools such as highly accurate digital scales costing close to or above $1K simply are not within my financial reality. What I rally need is solid advice on which additional measuring tools I need such as a concentricity gauge or any other tools I am not aware of. And speaking of concentricity gauges so far I am leaning towards the one made by Neco as the best for the money as it measures the most important aspects of brass as well as loaded ammunition, and saves ne from buying two or more gauges, but I would appreciate opinions on my choice of the Neco also.

My goal at the present and for at the very least the next 5 or more years is to simply be able to reload ammunition the quality of which will allow me to become competent enough to shoot with confidence out to 600 yards and by that I mean keep my shots well within the vital area of a deer or elk or roughly a target 10"x10".

Lastly I would like a recommendation on a good easy to understand book or two on how to reload for maximum accuracy besides these two I already own: " The ultimate in rifle accuracy" by Glenn Newick and "Precision shooting" by David Brennan.

Thanks,
Arthur.

 

[JLT]

Howdy, Arthur and welcome to the community.

Right off the bat, I see a gap in your gear list. A decent dial/digital caliper is a must for your purposes. You don't have to go crazy and spend the milk and braces money on a Starrett or similar. You can serve your needs very well and get change back from a $50. The iGaging IP54, for example, can be had for a little over half of that $50 bill and it'll serve you well.

You already have a Stoney Point tool. It seems that you lack a way to measure bolt face-to-bullet ogive, and you'll need something for that if you're going experiment successfully with seating depth. The .308 is pretty forgiving in almost every respect, but finding the right seating depth can be the difference between acceptable and 'wow'. Accurate relative meaurements, not absolute measurements, will do for this. The tool does not necessarily have to measure to the precise beginning of the bullet's bearing surface, it just has to measure in a consistent fashion. Sinclair sells a 1" hex nut gizmo that is drilled on all six sides for different bullet diameters. This tool, along with the Hornady Comparator/OAL set and the calipers I mentioned previously will allow you to assemble more accurate ammo.

Just a couple of thoughts off the top of my head . . .

 

[CharlieNC]

Art you need the Hornady comparator kit to measure headspace when sizing, and ogive length to seat the bullets consistently. The basic Lyman loading manual is considered to be a good reference for beginners, but does not address using the comparator which is essential for safety and consistency. Given your goal of 10x10, the most important factors will then become learning how to develop a good load ( check OCW by Dan Newberry, and ladder tests ) and reading/compensating for the wind ( a low cost phone app or free JBM online) requiring trigger time. On many sites you will find a Stickys section with excellent technique summaries. A sound load development is essential, so do your homework ( Cortina LR Development at 100yd a few posts below is similar to OCW ) and good luck. BE SAFE, work up charges incrementally, pay careful attention, avoid distractions.

 

[Art Dirindin]

Sorry, forgot to list I have the complete Stony Point Comparator kit and it's a Starrett caliper NOT a micrometer. I know I should probably get a micrometer as they are 10x more accurate than a dial caliper, so a recommendation on a solid micrometer would be appreciated.

 

[JLT]

Sorry, forgot to list I have the complete Stony Point Comparator kit and it's a Starrett caliper NOT a micrometer. I know I should probably get a micrometer as they are 10x more accurate than a dial caliper, so a recommendation on a solid micrometer would be appreciated.

Arthur,

Look at this one . . . .

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0087TMUQ8/?tag=accuratescom-20

 

[Texas10]

Art, a big welcome to the barrel nut club!

Looks like you have just about everything you need for developing a hunting load in your factory Savage 12FV in 308. I have 4 of the model 12 FV's and every one shoots under a MOA or better. Having said that, what with the current state of quality control, or lack of it at Savage, you may get a real shooter ( I have one that shoots under 1/4 moa), or a real turkey. Most likely a shooter, but you can't depend upon it anymore, not in todays market.

You sound like you're adept at home spun gun smithing, and barrel changing so why not remove a big variable in your build. Sell the Savage barrel in un-shot condition (except factory proofing) and buy a good aftermarket barrel. That will probably be the best $150 up grade you spend on your build and will virtually guarantee you will have that 600 yd gun.

I don't want to sound disparaging towards Savages, quite the opposite in fact. I own 7 of them and have built them into decent shooting rifles, mostly for shooting paper for fun but also hunting. They are fine weapons, especially on a cost per accuracy basis. Pretty hard to beat, IMOP and very easy to improve upon with AM parts as you noted.

Good luck, and keep the updates coming in. Always a pleasure to hear you're progressing towards your goal.

 

[ireload2]

A good micrometer will depend some on how much you want to spend and how much patience you have.
The best deals for like new but used mikes are on ebay but you might have to spend a few weeks to months shopping.
A good brand in new condition that is readily available used is the Scherr Tumico. The 0-1 will run about $15 if you are a tough shopper.
Premium quality mikes include Tesa and Etalon which are the same mike with different frames made in Switzerland. Many of these mikes have led a hard life so it takes a bit of shopping to get a like new one for less than $40. Competition for them on ebay is usually high.
In between are 1960s to 1980s Brown and Sharpes and Mitutoyos. Starretts are always over priced for what you get.
There are maybe 40 brands of decent mikes and there is a lot of crappy brands too. You often get crap if you do not buy a mike in top condition. Condition really counts.

Information from a mike collector if you have the time to kill
http://cofes.com/Portals/0/COFES_2012/COFES2012_MICROMETERS.pdf

Sorry, forgot to list I have the complete Stony Point Comparator kit and it's a Starrett caliper NOT a micrometer. I know I should probably get a micrometer as they are 10x more accurate than a dial caliper, so a recommendation on a solid micrometer would be appreciated.

 

[Jet]

Art

Looks like you have everything you need to get started toward meeting your stated goal. I could add a couple nice to have items but don't feel they are necessary other than the calipers mentioned earlier. I know you specifically address tools but I will add components since you are factoring in cost. Since you have been reloading for many years you know how expensive it can be to develop a load when changing bullets, powders, etc. Recommend you pick proven performers based on how you want the bullet to perform on game. Will a Sierra Game King work or do you need a bullet that will be used on tougher game? Lots of great powder, brass and primers for the 308 so select one and then start doing your load testing.

Learn how to do a tune at 100yds. Erik Cortina has a good write up on this.

http://forum.accurateshooter.com/threads/long-range-load-development-at-100-yards.3814361/

You don't need your rifle to shoot .25" five shot groups but a repeatable .75"-1.00" 100yd tune can be developed relatively easy without spending a couple hundred bucks on components. Once you get the load developed, spend your time and money on shooting your rifle with that load at the distances you plan on shooting at and from the positions you plan on shooting from. A hunter with a 1" gun that knows how to employ it will out shoot a hunter with a .25" gun that hasn't invested much time in learning how to fire it in field conditions and how to shoot it from the various positions encountered when hunting.

Keep us posted on your progress and Good Shooting.

Rich

 

[dkhunt14]

You have everything you need. I prefer to tune at 3 or 400 yards. Makes it easier to see differences. What you need is to get the gun shooting by powder charge and seating depth. Even most factory guns are capable of shooting 5 shot groups at 600 yards in the 3 to 4 inch range.

You don't need a concentrity gage, I feel concentrity is over rated. You can roll a loaded round on a flat surface and see if it's bad by watching the end of the bullet.

If you could find a mentor that shoots 600 or 1000 yard it would cut the learning curve some and save you time and money. Matt

 

[RonAKA]

My present reloading equipment list is:
RCBS Rockchucker II press
PACT powder dispenser and electronic scale
RCBS 10-10 and 5-0-5 balance beam scales used to weigh EVERY powder charge
Lee Collet dies
Forster BR bullet seating dies
Redding body only sizing dies
Lee EZ-Trim
Hornady Priming tool
K&M primer pocket uniforming tool
Lyman VLD chamfering tool
RCBS flash hole de-burring tool
Stony Point COAL tools
Starret digital micrometer my 1 and only measuring tool
RCBS 110V multi station brass preparation I use to polish case mouths and inside of case necks

First off, I certainly don't think you need to start over. You have a very good selection of equipment to reload that if anything is more than adequate for hunting purposes. For target I would make a few suggestions to consider though.

The Lee Collet die is a really good die, and is probably the best when it comes to minimizing the working of the brass in the neck, and as a result maximizing the life of the brass. The only issue is that you have limited control of the final loaded neck diameter. Without neck turning, it is what it is. In a custom gun (chamber) and using neck turning, you can control the clearance of a loaded round in the neck to the chamber to very tight tolerances. However with a factory gun you can't do that. My solution, as I shoot a Savage LRPV in 6BR, is to only size about 2/3 of the neck, and leave the back 1/3 in the as fired condition. This ensures a custom tight fit in the neck and gets the rear of the bullet as concentric with the chamber as you can get. And, if you combine that with jamming the bullet, 0.005 to 0.010", the front of the bullet will be concentric too. I don't recommend jamming for hunting though. If you chamber a cartridge and then try to extract it, the bullet may stick in the barrel and powder goes everywhere in the action. Not good especially out in the field...

So how do you partially size the neck? To my knowledge you can't go it with a collet die, but you may. Perhaps others could help. My first choice is with a Forster Bushing Bump die. You just partially stroke the die so only 2/3 of the neck is sized. But really any neck or even FL die can be used in this way. You just short stroke the press to get the neck sized as you wish.

I wasn't clear on which Stony Point gauges you have. I am not a big fan of using their gauges to set COAL. I just use a split neck case and trial and error with the bullet I plan to shoot. Once you get it such that you have it in the just touching the lands position, then use the Stony Point bullet comparator bushing and holder to measure from the base to the ogive. That is the dimension you use to set you bullet seating depth. It has to be adjusted of course to give you the desired jam or jump. I don't recommend seating right at the lands. A micrometer seating die like the Forster one is convenient, but not essential.

For case sizing, I would suggest using the same Stony point bushing holder but with the shoulder datum bushing for the .308. When you FL size or bump the shoulder, you can use this measurement to determine the very minimum bump you need. The idea is to have the case about 0.001" short of the chamber shoulder.

Yes, you need a 0-1" micrometer, and the expensive brands are great. A digital is faster. That said, I use one from China that cost me under $20, and it is the basic vernier type. It does require the zero to be reset from time to time, but I find it very accurate. Reading a vernier requires some practice though. I am now at the point that I can read mine to a couple of tenths of a thou without using the vernier scale, and to about a half a tenth using the vernier. If you can borrow a precision 1" gauge pin, you could use that to check the 1" accuracy as well as the zero accuracy when shopping for a micrometer. They can always be zeroed, but if the span is off, I don't think it can be adjusted. At least not mine...

Last I would recommend using good brass like Lapua, and preferably all from the same batch.

Hope that helps some,

 

[jdh47]

Welcome to the forum.

Are you set on the .308? If you already have the dies for it, it would be good. If you don't you might consider the 243, 6.5 Creedmoor or 6.5x47 Lapua. Those will do well for midrange and be forgiving to load for.

Your setup is pretty good and if you don't have one I would get a decent bore guide for cleaning. It doesn't have to be top of the line just something to keep things straight. I second the 6" dial caliper. Depending on where you are they can be found reasonable at pawn shops and craigslist.

Joe

 

[Art Dirindin]

Thanks for all the replies so far have printed them all out for future reference. I ended up NOT buying a Savage 12FV as the Savage 10FCP came recommended as a superior alternative that only cost a few $$$ more so I bought one in .308. I chose the .308 for financial and convenience considerations above all others. Found one after the $100 Savage mail in rebate for $455 so I jumped on it.

Will be ordering dies and bullets soon. Going with 175grn SMK to start with. Have IMR4895 and 4064 so will start with them. Will begin with plane Jane Winchester brass for early stage shooting, will likely upgrade to better brass once my skills warrant it.

FWIW I don't use SP gauges to determine my COL only to measure it. I use the jam method for that.

Thanks for the help,
Arthur.