Alabama F-Class Championship.......... a big flop.

[Erud]

We are investigating exactly what happened during the F class match at Talladega. We are reviewing video to see which RSOs made negative comments to competitors and they will be disiplined accordingly. KTS reps will be on the ground 17-19 October to review our findings and resolve any remaining issues, if any. We feel we have a corrupt server causing the issue, caused by an update to software. As for the $2 million spent on targets.... We are talking 258 targets on three different ranges. As far as choosing the right target system... All are comparable and none are perfect, including humans pulling and scoring paper targets.

We are pioneers in the sport and we have a few arrows in our rear ends to prove it.

We will make this right.. Contact me at mjohnson@thecmp.org and we will discuss your travel expenses from L.A.to the park.

The match will be reshot when all is investigated thoroughly and repairs are completed.

COO,
As you just joined the site yesterday to make this post, it would be helpful if you would post your name and job title. This particular forum doesn't really cater to CMP-type shooting, so most here probably have no idea who you are.

 

[lawman29]

Erud,

COO = Chief Operating Officer. He gave his email address which included his name in his post... http://thecmp.org/about/coo/

 

[Erud]

Erud,

COO = Chief Operating Officer. He gave his email address which included his name in his post... http://thecmp.org/about/coo/

I know who he is, but I come from a Service Rifle background, unlike many(most?) of the shooters here. I would hazard to guess that most people here do not know who Mark Johnson is, and why should they? My point was that if a person shows up on a forum speaking as someone in authority, it is common courtesy to tell the people you are talking to who you are, rather than make them try to decipher it from clues in your post.

 

[Mozella]

........... snip............As for the $2 million spent on targets.... We are talking 258 targets on three different ranges. As far as choosing the right target system... All are comparable and none are perfect, including humans pulling and scoring paper targets.
....... snip.............

The point isn't that the cost per target is excessive, although some would argue that it is. Remember, we're not talking about buying a single target system from some guy working out of his garage for $800. In that case you would not expect him to be willing to change the software to speak French, for example. But if you're spending a reported 2 million for a gigantic U.S. based system, you're talking about a huge contract, especially by gun range standards. To cite just one example, somebody should have insisted that the system have an option to read Center to Center distances in inches if not before the check was signed, certainly within a year after installation.

Most people realize that no system is perfect, including conventional manual targets. But so what? People aren't expecting perfection. What they are expecting if they go to considerable effort and expense and invest a lot of time to attend a State Championship level match, is that they have the chance to compete. Reasonable delays while the entry list is corrected, or being forced to move to another target or even re-shooting part of string are all problems nearly every competitor is willing to accept, especially with electronic targets. But if you ask anyone who attended the Talladega match how they would describe the system that failed to the point that the match was called off, I doubt if you would find anyone who would reply. "Well, it's not perfect and neither are manual targets". It's a lot worse than "not perfect" and without any back up capability, the KTS is not ready for prime time.

 

[ryanjay11]

A couple of questions:
Isn't this the exact same system they have been using in Europe successfully with targets attached for several years?

Wouldn't MOA make the most sense as a system of measurement, since that is what the targets are based on, and the majority of sights use as adjustments?

 

[chkunz]

I think most folks on this thread understand the requirements for a Club to hold a NRA State Championship event but just in case there are a few that do not I will explain the very basics of a "state championship". NRA approved State Championships are first approved by the NRA State Association of the state in which they are to be held to be sure that they meet minimum NRA requirements including range standards. Sometimes more than one club would like to sponsor the event and the NRA State Association must decide who gets the privilege of hosting the event. Once the NRA State association approves the event the State Association signs the application and sends it to the NRA Competitions Division for their approval. Anyone can hold any shooting event and call it a "state championship" but it is not an NRA State Championship unless it goes thru this process. The Match Director of an NRA approved championship will have the NRA approval in hand and should post it for all to see during registration.

 

[Berger.Fan222]

Anyone can hold any shooting event and call it a "state championship" but it is not an NRA State Championship unless it goes thru this process. The Match Director of an NRA approved championship will have the NRA approval in hand and should post it for all to see during registration.

Right. But the issue in Alabama is not an overabundance of Mid-Range state championships and Mid-Range facilities.

I don't think there are any other ranges in Alabama that regularly hold 600 yard F-Class matches on the paper targets needed for NRA approval. The AL Long Range F-Class championship has been held in TN for the past couple of years. That is an excellent arrangement. But most of the 600 and 1000 yard matches at AEDC this summer were cancelled due to facilities improvements ( http://www.midsouthmarksmen.com/master-schedule.html ), so there have been a dearth of places to shoot 600 yard and longer F-Class matches in and near AL in 2016, including no other parties attempting a Mid-Range F-Class Championship in AL.

To my knowledge, all the 600 yard F-Class matches in AL in 2016 were at Talladega CMP, so it's hard to object to them holding a "State Championship" even of not NRA approved.

The CMP has a great facility and can be a huge blessing to the shooters in and near AL if they get their target issues resolved. There are really several issues going on here:

1. eTarget reliability at Talladega has been poor, and it came to a breaking point last weekend.
2. A group of great guys (Bama F-Class Marksmen) has worked really hard to provide a quality match. Most attendees of the early matches valued other issues over NRA approval, so they focused on the other organizational issues.
3. The eTarget issue (like all facilities issues) are outside the control of Bama F-Class Marksmen. CMP has a monopoly on 600 yard ranges in AL.
4. NRA approval (and adjustments to obtain it) will require a significant increase in effort for both the organizers (Bama F-Class Marksmen) and CMP. Depending on the desires of attendees, it may not be worth the efforts.

NRA approval is optional for a quality match. Proper and reliable target operation is mandatory. Hopefully this debacle will provide CMP with motivation to fix the problem and stop shifting the blame to the shooters.

 

[ryanjay11]

Shooting "F-Class" without F-Class targets is beyond ridiculous. To then call it a state championship takes it one step farther.

Your comparison to the Sierra Cup just doesn't make sense. At that match, there were F-T/R and F-Open shooters shooting a match ran exactly as NRA matches are run. Just because they allowed a 3rd discipline(bench) to shoot, it doesn't take away from the fact that the other rules were followed to a T. Even they did not have the arrogance to call it a State Championship. This is akin to Savage Dasher constantly blathering on about shooting Benchrest, when they shoot steel gongs.

It sounds like a very nice facility. I'd love to see some of these correctable issues resolved, so they are able to hold a legitimate State Championship. It's pretty obvious that the CMP vs. NRA leadership is playing a role in this.

 

[SDDasher]

Right. But the issue in Alabama is not an overabundance of Mid-Range state championships and Mid-Range facilities.

I don't think there are any other ranges in Alabama that regularly hold 600 yard F-Class matches on the paper targets needed for NRA approval. The AL Long Range F-Class championship has been held in TN for the past couple of years. That is an excellent arrangement. But most of the 600 and 1000 yard matches at AEDC this summer were cancelled due to facilities improvements ( http://www.midsouthmarksmen.com/master-schedule.html ), so there have been a dearth of places to shoot 600 yard and longer F-Class matches in and near AL in 2016, including no other parties attempting a Mid-Range F-Class Championship in AL.

To my knowledge, all the 600 yard F-Class matches in AL in 2016 were at Talladega CMP, so it's hard to object to them holding a "State Championship" even of not NRA approved.

The CMP has a great facility and can be a huge blessing to the shooters in and near AL if they get their target issues resolved. There are really several issues going on here:

1. eTarget reliability at Talladega has been poor, and it came to a breaking point last weekend.
2. A group of great guys (Bama F-Class Marksmen) has worked really hard to provide a quality match. Most attendees of the early matches valued other issues over NRA approval, so they focused on the other organizational issues.
3. The eTarget issue (like all facilities issues) are outside the control of Bama F-Class Marksmen. CMP has a monopoly on 600 yard ranges in AL.
4. NRA approval (and adjustments to obtain it) will require a significant increase in effort for both the organizers (Bama F-Class Marksmen) and CMP. Depending on the desires of attendees, it may not be worth the efforts.

NRA approval is optional for a quality match. Proper and reliable target operation is mandatory. Hopefully this debacle will provide CMP with motivation to fix the problem and stop shifting the blame to the shooters.

I live in the Florida panhandle, which has been closely associated with and sometimes called " Lower Alabama" affectionately. The absence of an Alabama KD (known distance) range has forced many of us desiring to shoot Highpower competitions to travel to neighboring states to shoot state and regional championships. While Louisiana, Tennessee, Georgia, Florida, and Texas all offer fine venues it still is not the same as hosting a state championship in your own home state.
When CMP announced the creation of the Anniston/Talladega concept many of us were very hopeful this would finally allow a true state Highpower Championship to be held in the State of Alabama. I am still hopeful this may indeed come to fruition, however a new range built in Laurel, Mississippi (Bar3range) with both Long Range and Mid Range covered firing points may be the alternative to Tullahoma and Oak Ridge to Host an Alabama/Mississippi State Championship until CMP can resolve their issues.

 

[Down South]

I live in the Florida panhandle, which has been closely associated with and sometimes called " Lower Alabama" affectionately. The absence of an Alabama KD (known distance) range has forced many of us desiring to shoot Highpower competitions to travel to neighboring states to shoot state and regional championships. While Louisiana, Tennessee, Georgia, Florida, and Texas all offer fine venues it still is not the same as hosting a state championship in your own home state.
When CMP announced the creation of the Anniston/Talladega concept many of us were very hopeful this would finally allow a true state Highpower Championship to be held in the State of Alabama. I am still hopeful this may indeed come to fruition, however a new range built in Laurel, Mississippi (Bar3range) with both Long Range and Mid Range covered firing points may be the alternative to Tullahoma and Oak Ridge to Host an Alabama/Mississippi State Championship until CMP can resolve their issues.

Sounds good to me, the Laurel range is NICE!.........

 

[Berger.Fan222]

I live in the Florida panhandle, which has been closely associated with and sometimes called " Lower Alabama" affectionately. The absence of an Alabama KD (known distance) range has forced many of us desiring to shoot Highpower competitions to travel to neighboring states to shoot state and regional championships. While Louisiana, Tennessee, Georgia, Florida, and Texas all offer fine venues it still is not the same as hosting a state championship in your own home state.
When CMP announced the creation of the Anniston/Talladega concept many of us were very hopeful this would finally allow a true state Highpower Championship to be held in the State of Alabama. I am still hopeful this may indeed come to fruition, however a new range built in Laurel, Mississippi (Bar3range) with both Long Range and Mid Range covered firing points may be the alternative to Tullahoma and Oak Ridge to Host an Alabama/Mississippi State Championship until CMP can resolve their issues.

Thanks for mentioning this. I am part of a group of shooters wearing out a pretty good path from Houston to Atlanta, so all the ranges in between (and close) are very interesting to us. Laurel MS is a great location. I'll post on a new thread soliciting more info and experiences.

 

[Ed Tyler]

"F-Class" is not owned or copyrighted or trademarked by NRA. As long as there is no claim of NRA registration, sanction, or approval, any organization can host "F-Class" matches. I suppose 10 different groups could have F-Class Championships in a state, but only one could be NRA sanctioned.

In this case, I do not think there was any NRA Mid-Range F-Class Championship in Alabama. I'm a life member of the NRA, and I appreciate all they do. But it's a free market out there, and I welcome other groups and organizations holding F-Class events even if not sanctioned by the NRA.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the 2016 Sierra Cup was NRA sanctioned.

Too bad about the target woes. I hope they get that worked out.

Let me first introduce myself. I am Ed Tyler and I was the Match Director for the F-Class competition that held at the CMP Talladega range.

Target communication/software difficulties were encountered early in the match. After attempts were made to resolve the problems it was decided to call the match. Discussions with the range officials and management have assured me that they have a plan in place to fully resolve the problems. These problems often occur with new technology and they seldom preannounce their arrival. The second paragraph of Murphy's law asserts that such problems will always occur at the worst possible time.

Please understand that I called the match after consulting with the staff. I made that decision in the best interest of the competitors, future matches and with respect to the best interest of all involved. There were problems. The range conditions complicated the identification of the problems. Wind speeds in the area were in excess of 30 miles per hour and gusting. Everyone wanted an answer now but simple answers and solutions were in short supply. It was a difficult situation. Not only were solutions in short supply, so was patience. Everyone wanted an answer now and none were available. The staff did not have the answers that everyone wanted. The best solution for the day was to call the match and do what was necessary to preserve the opportunity to conduct future F-Class matches at the facility.

I look forward to the resolution. Our next matches will be after the new Year and by that time the problems should be resolved and confirmed, thru use, as being rock solid stable. Ed Tyler

 

[zd8000]

SO CMP /NRA are going to address electronic target rules in the F class rulebook? or just stop shooting Fclass on CMP targets altogether?

 

[chkunz]

SO CMP /NRA are going to address electronic target rules in the F class rulebook? or just stop shooting Fclass on CMP targets altogether?

I am not sure if this helps or not but there is no separate "NRA F Class Rulebook" The NRA F Class rules are included in the NRA High Power Rifle rule book which also contains the NRA rules relative to electronic targets for High Power Rifle competition. Possibly you already knew this and if so just ignore my reply.

 

[dannyjbiggs]

Being a seasoned NRA F-Class Open competitor; it would be more pleasing to my ear/eye, and I would be less offended, if the CMP/Bama F-Class Marksmen would officially start calling their pseudo F-Class matches held on a high power E-Target system: "High Power Mid-Range Match--F-Class Rifle". That could be easily abbreviated HPMR-FC Rifle.

Dan

 

[chkunz]

For myself, being a seasoned NRA F-Class Open competitor; it would be more pleasing to my ear/eye, and I would be less offended, if the CMP/Bama F-Class Marksmen would start calling their pseudo F-Class matches held on a high power E-Target system: "Mid-Range Matches Using the F-Class Rifle". That could be easily abbreviated MR-FC Rifle.

Dan

Or simply refer to them as Non NRA approved Mid-Range F Class matches.

 

[ryanjay11]

Or simply refer to them as Non NRA approved Mid-Range F Class matches.

If you think it's acceptable to even use the term F-Class for advertising when they are not shooting the F-Class target, then I'm at a loss.

 

[Damfino]

Ed,

I met you at the July match and you were very gracious when I had my own self-inflicted "technical problems" that precluded my shooting the last 2 relays. Good luck with your resolution and I look forward to next year's F-class matches.

Bill Allbritton

 

[gaboon]

For the CMP to hold a NRA approved match at their flagship facility. Would take some serious sucking it in. The problems you mention have been going on for sometime. I seen it in action working when it was brand new and other times. The excuses are getting to be to much for the expense of traveling to the range.

 

[Dos XX]

The NFC championship is going to be in my back yard this year, only we are using flags and the field is 80' long and there will be a keg at the 40 foot line. Sign up now while there is still room.