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Alabama F-Class Championship.......... a big flop.

Several shooters living near me made the four and a half hour drive to the lovely CMP shooting facility in Talladega, AL from L.A. That's "Lower Alabama" for you non-Red-Necks. The CMP range is fantastic, more like a luxury hotel than a typical rifle range. They have 54 electronic targets at 200, 300, and 600 yards that can be remotely raised and lowered as needed. There are several pistol ranges too, also with electronic targets, as well as a shotgun facility.

I was told that the Kongsberg Target System from Norway cost an astounding two million dollars. I knew ahead of time that these targets feature black-on-white aiming disks, 36 inches in diameter at 600 yards, without any other markings. That, of course, is a real problem for precision shooting. I even changed my normal fine cross hair scope for one with a graduated reticle.

I was given four different (conflicting) reasons the targets cannot be marked with rings or even a center aiming dot. If in fact the impossibility of adding target rings is a design defect associated with the target scoring membrane, it is a serious drawback. In my opinion at least, this inability to add some kind of markings, at least an aiming dot, would disqualify this system from being used in genuine F-Class competition or any other kind of shooting where aim points are frequently adjusted in increments of less than 1/4 MOA. Making small aiming adjustments is tricky, at least for people like me, when the smallest mark on the target is nearly six MOA across. Can this problem be corrected? Some range officials told me yes, some didn't know, and some were adamant that it is impossible to put any marks on the target membrane.

We arrived a day ahead of the match and did some practice shooting which, I will have to say, was interesting and enjoyable. The target monitors at each station can display various target styles along with other data once you get past the slightly quirky menu system. Oddly, nobody insisted that the monitors display the Center-to-Center measurement in inches rather than millimeters before they wrote that 2 million dollar check. Shame on somebody.

I'm not sure how many shooters registered but it looked like around 35 or so. Of course there was the usual registration foul ups experienced at most other matches. For example, I was assigned to the same relay and shooting position as another competitor and the fellow to my left had the wrong name appear on his target display over and over again. But rather than the match director simply scribbling on the entry sheet to make the correction, this particular electronic target system required long minutes of doing who-knows-what in the high tech control tower in an attempt to set things right. After a long delay, they eventually got things figured out, more or less, and finally the first relay was instructed that they had 5 minutes to fire unlimited sighters in a strong and shifty tailwind. Despite the challenging wind conditions, the people near where I was monitoring my counterpart quickly got their point of impact centered up, or nearly so. Then, rather than launch directly into a 20-minute scoring string, there was another irritating delay. Finally relay #1 was instructed to fire for score. Immediately after the first round went down target, I noticed that my station and four of them to the right of me failed to indicate anything. Some stations appeared to be working normally, but it looked like half of them failed. This started an agonizingly long period of rebooting, excuse making, and hand wringing by all concerned.

The mood of the shooting group quickly changed from willing to give the system and staff the benefit of the doubt to disgust and irritation when one of the match officials announced that the electronic system was probably OK and half the shooters were simply missing their targets entirely. This was a huge mistake. Not every shooter on the line was an ex world champion but nobody was shooting the dirt and sky either. Moreover, everyone was in the black with their sighters moments before. As far as I know, there was not a single shot off paper. The shooting group seemed willing to put up with some glitches in return for not having to pull targets, but everyone has their limit. Trying to shift the blame to the competitors pretty much erased any good will that existed at the beginning of the match.

After further messing around, they called the range cold, including the stations on the other end of the very long firing line where the recreational shooters were apparently enjoying success. The staff pulled the target backers. I am sure they were hoping-against-hope that the backers would prove to be intact. Of course, they weren't. More delay, more excuses, and some additional blame heaped on the shooters did not do much to improve the situation. Around noontime, the range was ready for some test rounds but not before another warning on the P.A. system that strong winds can shift your impact point. Ya' think? Talking to a bunch of experienced F-Class and Sling shooters as if they are childish rookies is NOT the way to win friends. A fair number of shooters gave up and went home before the match was cancelled.

After some reflection, I would have to give the facility an A++. It really is fantastic.

It is hard for me to heap scorn on anyone who volunteers to organize any kind of competition, especially if they are working for free. I've been there and done that. However, I assume some of the staff are paid employees of the range. It is natural that they would defend their very expensive target system. According to the shooters I talked with, denying that they have teething problems while trying to shift the blame to the shooters left a bad impression that far outweighed the disappointment associated with the actual technical problems. Therefore, I would give the staff a grade of D.

As for the target system, I would have to give it a big fat F. Shooters invest a lot of time and money to attend matches like this. If a conventional target malfunctions, it is possible to shift to another target and carry on, usually with only a short delay. When this particular electronic target system crashes, that's it. Game over; literally. It is simply not ready for prime time. This is my first time shooting electronic targets and I'm certainly no expert. Nevertheless, I cannot imagine anyone installing the expensive Kongsberg Target System at this time. I am certain electronic targets are the wave of the future and no doubt, they are wonderful when they work. Read the post by Bryan Litz about using the Silver Mountain system at the Lodi Nationals for a very positive report on electronic targets.

Unfortunately, using an electronic target system for an important match without any kind of back up, especially where competitors come from long distances, demands that the system MUST work. Sad to say the Kongsberg Target System failed to perform in spite of the very impressive two million dollar price tag. If you live by the computer, you die by the computer.

So how was the Alabama State F-Class Championship Match? NOT TOO GOOD, as we say in L.A.
 
How can it be called a F-class Championship when they do not use NRA F-Class targets?

"F-Class" is not owned or copyrighted or trademarked by NRA. As long as there is no claim of NRA registration, sanction, or approval, any organization can host "F-Class" matches. I suppose 10 different groups could have F-Class Championships in a state, but only one could be NRA sanctioned.

In this case, I do not think there was any NRA Mid-Range F-Class Championship in Alabama. I'm a life member of the NRA, and I appreciate all they do. But it's a free market out there, and I welcome other groups and organizations holding F-Class events even if not sanctioned by the NRA.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the 2016 Sierra Cup was NRA sanctioned.

Too bad about the target woes. I hope they get that worked out.
 
Sorry the match and competitors experienced so many problems. Speaking as a shooter having attended the F Class match previous to the last one at Talladega I have to agree the facility is first class. Unfortunately the electronic target system leaves a lot to be desired in function and substance. Having used the Silver Mountain ET scoring system for a season at Blakely, Ga the difference is significantly in favor for SM.

I hope the CMP will listen to the constructive suggestions from those experienced shooters attending matches to resolve their issues. I did not go away with the feeling that would be the case unfortunately.
 
"F-Class" is not owned or copyrighted or trademarked by NRA. As long as there is no claim of NRA registration, sanction, or approval, any organization can host "F-Class" matches. I suppose 10 different groups could have F-Class Championships in a state, but only one could be NRA sanctioned.

In this case, I do not think there was any NRA Mid-Range F-Class Championship in Alabama. I'm a life member of the NRA, and I appreciate all they do. But it's a free market out there, and I welcome other groups and organizations holding F-Class events even if not sanctioned by the NRA.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the 2016 Sierra Cup was NRA sanctioned.

Too bad about the target woes. I hope they get that worked out.

This is true about the Title being available to any club that wishes to use it for events fashioned in the style of it.
 
KTS target system was designed for one thing, iron sight shooting. So it doesn't surprise me that this match unfortunately went this way. The CMP is married to the KTS system. The SMT system is the way to go as far as when you are using scopes. Now as far as the comment on using official NRA targets, with e-targets the "Official target" is the target that is in the computer system that you do not see. This is per Dennis Willing, when I asked him about this as we only put up the aiming blacks at Atterbury for our SMT systems.With e-targets there is a paradigm shift, you have the aiming target that is the paper target you aim at and then the acoustical target which is the official scoring target. It doesn't matter where your rounds hit on the aiming target as it is purely for aiming purposes, what matters is where the rounds on the acoustical target show for score.
 
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"F-Class" is not owned or copyrighted or trademarked by NRA. As long as there is no claim of NRA registration, sanction, or approval, any organization can host "F-Class" matches. I suppose 10 different groups could have F-Class Championships in a state, but only one could be NRA sanctioned.

In this case, I do not think there was any NRA Mid-Range F-Class Championship in Alabama. I'm a life member of the NRA, and I appreciate all they do. But it's a free market out there, and I welcome other groups and organizations holding F-Class events even if not sanctioned by the NRA.

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I don't think the 2016 Sierra Cup was NRA sanctioned.

Too bad about the target woes. I hope they get that worked out.

Back on June 18, my rifle club in Huntsville, AL...The Blue and Gray Rifle and Pistol Club...held a "B&G Club F-Class Championship" at the Talladega CMP Range. I have not seen any announcements for the "Alabama F-Class Championship" titled to this blog? What "club/organization" sponsored this match?

I know that the TN/AL State F-Class Championship was held up at Arnold AF Station on 3-4 Sep.

Dan
 
Back on June 18, my rifle club in Huntsville, AL...The Blue and Gray Rifle and Pistol Club...held a "B&G Club F-Class Championship" at the Talladega CMP Range. I have not seen any announcements for the "Alabama F-Class Championship" titled to this blog? What "club/organization" sponsored this match?

I know that the TN/AL State F-Class Championship was held up at Arnold AF Station on 3-4 Sep.

Dan

http://bamafclassmarksmen.org/wp/index.php/events/

The web site above lists the Oct 8 event at Talladega as the "Annual Alabama F-Class State Championship." From their web site, it seems like the sponsoring organization is known as "Bama F-Class Marksman."

The "TN/AL State F-Class Championship [that] was held up at Arnold AF Station on 3-4 Sep" was the Long Range state championship.

The TN Mid-Range state championship is scheduled for Oct 22-23 at Oak Ridge, and does not seem to include AL.

So there does seem to be room for an AL Mid-Range F-Class championship in 2016.
 
I was there and to have the RO continually suggest that we could not keep our rounds on a 36 inch target because of the wind was very off putting to me and others

to the OP I share your feelings 100% ! great range not so great staff
 
http://bamafclassmarksmen.org/wp/index.php/events/

The web site above lists the Oct 8 event at Talladega as the "Annual Alabama F-Class State Championship." From their web site, it seems like the sponsoring organization is known as "Bama F-Class Marksman."

The "TN/AL State F-Class Championship [that] was held up at Arnold AF Station on 3-4 Sep" was the Long Range state championship.

The TN Mid-Range state championship is scheduled for Oct 22-23 at Oak Ridge, and does not seem to include AL.

So there does seem to be room for an AL Mid-Range F-Class championship in 2016.

Okay, I read that notice. But, I'm used to reading regular match bulletin announcements. NRA national records could be set at the TN/AL State F-Class Championship, as they also will be at the ORSA TN MR State Championship. There is no mention of any CMP awards or CMP national MR record opportunities in their notice? For either F-TR and F-Class Open? Does the CMP distinguish in any way between F-TR and F-Class Open? Is there any plan to upgrade the annual match to include CMP national records/other awards? Why didn't the CMP include "MR" in their notice in order to distinguish an Alabama mid-range championship from a long range championship? Are competitors restricted to an NRA-legal F-TR or F-Open Rifle and rest equipment, or are there allowable variants, such as silencers?

Dan
 
Okay, I read that notice. But, I'm used to reading regular match bulletin announcements. NRA national records could be set at the TN/AL State F-Class Championship, as they also will be at the ORSA TN MR State Championship. There is no mention of any CMP awards or CMP national MR record opportunities in their notice? For either F-TR and F-Class Open? Does the CMP distinguish in any way between F-TR and F-Class Open? Is there any plan to upgrade the annual match to include CMP national records/other awards? Why didn't the CMP include "MR" in their notice in order to distinguish an Alabama mid-range championship from a long range championship? Are competitors restricted to an NRA-legal F-TR or F-Open Rifle and rest equipment, or are there allowable variants, such as silencers?

Dan


Those are all great questions worthy of accurate answers. But I think the match director is the right person to ask. I attended a match or two early in the year, so I don't have all those answers.

I agree some MR or Mid-Range should be included in the announcement, but since I am familiar with the range and know it only has Mid-Range capabilities, I hardly noticed. Looking at the posted match results (from an earlier month, since Oct was a bust), they do recognize F-TR differently from F-Open. But I've never been at a match where rifles were weighed (NRA or otherwise, including state and regional championships), so I am not sure how strictly the NRA requirements are upheld or enforced.

I prefer matches with bulletins which address all these particulars, but I also have the experience of NRA sanctioned events which still link to bulletins from past years and which often contain outdated info. These guys are clearly still coming up the learning curve of running matches, and it may have been presumptuous to bill one as a "State Championship." Still, I applaud their efforts and the opportunity to have one more match in the SE to shoot at.

The issues with the electronic targets are a much bigger issue for me than organizational quirks of their rookie season. I had talked with shooting buddies about traveling some distance to participate in this match, and we would have been very disappointed if we had traveled to the eTarget debacle at Talladega.

I think I talked up the eTargets and the match favorably on this board earlier this year, and now I am embarrassed for those who traveled to check it out. The organizers of new matches are due some grace as they come up the learning curve. In my view, it is the CMP folks that let everyone down with the failures of the electronic system. Word on the street is that there were some failures at an earlier match this summer, so they should have recognized the possibility and been more diligent to prevent it and/or have a reliable back-up plan.
 
Those are all great questions worthy of accurate answers. But I think the match director is the right person to ask. I attended a match or two early in the year, so I don't have all those answers.

I agree some MR or Mid-Range should be included in the announcement, but since I am familiar with the range and know it only has Mid-Range capabilities, I hardly noticed. Looking at the posted match results (from an earlier month, since Oct was a bust), they do recognize F-TR differently from F-Open. But I've never been at a match where rifles were weighed (NRA or otherwise, including state and regional championships), so I am not sure how strictly the NRA requirements are upheld or enforced.

I prefer matches with bulletins which address all these particulars, but I also have the experience of NRA sanctioned events which still link to bulletins from past years and which often contain outdated info. These guys are clearly still coming up the learning curve of running matches, and it may have been presumptuous to bill one as a "State Championship." Still, I applaud their efforts and the opportunity to have one more match in the SE to shoot at.

The issues with the electronic targets are a much bigger issue for me than organizational quirks of their rookie season. I had talked with shooting buddies about traveling some distance to participate in this match, and we would have been very disappointed if we had traveled to the eTarget debacle at Talladega.

I think I talked up the eTargets and the match favorably on this board earlier this year, and now I am embarrassed for those who traveled to check it out. The organizers of new matches are due some grace as they come up the learning curve. In my view, it is the CMP folks that let everyone down with the failures of the electronic system. Word on the street is that there were some failures at an earlier match this summer, so they should have recognized the possibility and been more diligent to prevent it and/or have a reliable back-up plan.

Very informative. Thanks for the quick reply.

Dan
 
Targets were not 100% today either. I suspect the wind had something to do with it. RO made a serious mistake telling folks they were missing because the wind, I have seen several of them shoot. I hope that doesn't derail the F Class matches at CMP.
 
I have shot a couple of service rifle matches there when they first opened the range. I knew from the start there was going to be problems. I walk the pistol line to see the system on how it works. What I saw was a joke. The wiring was laying on the ground. Wire splices using regular but splices open to the air. No tape or shrink wrap to help keep out moisture. Assuming what I saw there was probably everywhere also.
 
I have shot a couple of service rifle matches there when they first opened the range. I knew from the start there was going to be problems. I walk the pistol line to see the system on how it works. What I saw was a joke. The wiring was laying on the ground. Wire splices using regular but splices open to the air. No tape or shrink wrap to help keep out moisture. Assuming what I saw there was probably everywhere also.
 
We are investigating exactly what happened during the F class match at Talladega. We are reviewing video to see which RSOs made negative comments to competitors and they will be disiplined accordingly. KTS reps will be on the ground 17-19 October to review our findings and resolve any remaining issues, if any. We feel we have a corrupt server causing the issue, caused by an update to software. As for the $2 million spent on targets.... We are talking 258 targets on three different ranges. As far as choosing the right target system... All are comparable and none are perfect, including humans pulling and scoring paper targets.

We are pioneers in the sport and we have a few arrows in our rear ends to prove it.

We will make this right.. Contact me at mjohnson@thecmp.org and we will discuss your travel expenses from L.A.to the park.

The match will be reshot when all is investigated thoroughly and repairs are completed.
 
COO - I appreciate what you are doing for the competitors in the f class match by offering to pay their expenses, but it's not enough. It has been over a year since this target system has been installed. You have a polite staff and a beautiful facility. The comments made by Mozilla are spot on.

I'm not typically a forum person. However as a competitor. I'm having a hard time justifying the expenses to continue to test your targets. Its been over a year and you come up with excuses for every event. Rain, server error, upgrades, wind, missing the targets, bullets being disintegrated. Yea, the facility is nice. I have yet to hear of an event that was ran without errors, and not little errors either. They are not scoring. When you raise your hand for questions you get excuses by the park manager for missing or not reading the wind. Your targets are NOT working... Here are simple facts ammo price is not going down, gas is not going down, hotel expenses are not going down. Even if you paid my way, I would not purposefully put myself through another headache at Talladega. Show me several matches back to back and I might consider tossing my $1.00 a round ammo into your fancy targets.

You know what would be more impressive? If CMP spent $2 million on GROWING the different shooting sports. You are not introducing new shooters to shooting sport, you are just upsetting the ones who are already shooters, already competing in events. Use that $2 million to subsidize ammo for Jr clubs. or use it for folks who want to teach classes. Or workup a deal with creedmore on ammo. This sport is expensive already, now try and practice this sport at your facility. $30 a day, plus the ammo expenses to shoot at the targets that only sometimes show a score value. Who has that kind of money? Let alone try and bring a new shooter to teach!

The CMP could learn some great lessons from The Appleseed groups. Instead CMP is throwing money at a target system that has YET to prove successful.
After a year of this frustration, I would be asking for my $2 million back.
 

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