Advice on annealing and carbon in the neck

[michaelnel]

If I were inclined to get an arbor press that could show bullet seating force, I would be more likely to go for the 21st Century one, which is hydraulic instead of strain gauge based like the K&M:

http://www.21stcenturyshooting.com/Hydro_Bullet_Seater.php

It's expensive, but that seems a better way to make the measurement.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I have consistently held 4" vertical (10 shots) at 1k by shooting, cleaning outside of neck with steel wool, anneal, brush inside of neck with nylon brush, load. When I tested all the other methods I found to stay away from, lubes, ultrasonic, SS pins, and steel wool on the inside. Real testing showed me what method has the least vertical. I have shot 4" groups with over 10 lb seating variation on the K&M pressure gauge, dont worry about that. From your description I would increase neck tension to .004+ and or find a different seating depth that is not so picky.

 

[mikecr]

I would increase neck tension to .004+

This is not possible. Tension = Springback
Even WSSM necks, at 20thou+ thickness, will not springback more than 3thou.
Normal thickness necks springback 1-2thou max, so any sizing beyond 1-2thou under cal is purely over-working of the brass.

Is this why so many here think annealing is constantly needed?

 

[LHSmith]

I would increase neck tension to .004+

This is not possible. Tension = Springback
Even WSSM necks, at 20thou+ thickness, will not springback more than 3thou.
Normal thickness necks springback 1-2thou max, so any sizing beyond 1-2thou under cal is purely over-working of the brass.

Is this why so many here think annealing is constantly needed?

Note that competitors who use N-133 in their 6 PPC's typically use a .256 bushing on a .260 loaded round (.262 neck chambering). Despite the fact that they typically use the same 25 cases for a 100/200 yd agg match, they aren't known to carry around an annealing machine. When I shot N-133, the neck tension afforded by the .256 bushing provided the best results.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I would increase neck tension to .004+

This is not possible. Tension = Springback
Even WSSM necks, at 20thou+ thickness, will not springback more than 3thou.
Normal thickness necks springback 1-2thou max, so any sizing beyond 1-2thou under cal is purely over-working of the brass.

Is this why so many here think annealing is constantly needed?

Note that competitors who use N-133 in their 6 PPC's typically use a .256 bushing on a .260 loaded round (.262 neck chambering). Despite the fact that they typically use the same 25 cases for a 100/200 yd agg match, they aren't known to carry around an annealing machine. When I shot N-133, the neck tension afforded by the .256 bushing provided the best results.

Whether you think its possible or not, it shows on the target. Sometimes you just have to do what works not what you think works.

 

[dmoran]

I have consistently held 4" vertical (10 shots) at 1k by shooting, cleaning outside of neck with steel wool, anneal, brush inside of neck with nylon brush, load.

Alex -

When do you size?
(I'm guessing that is your meaning when you say "load", and would come after your above steps)

Also, when you were testing non-annealed brass in comparison, did you have as much variance in the seating force as the annealed? or how did the two play out in comparison to seating force? (you probably told me, but can't remember)

Donovan

 

[Jdne5b]

I have consistently held 4" vertical (10 shots) at 1k by shooting, cleaning outside of neck with steel wool, anneal, brush inside of neck with nylon brush, load. When I tested all the other methods I found to stay away from, lubes, ultrasonic, SS pins, and steel wool on the inside. Real testing showed me what method has the least vertical. I have shot 4" groups with over 10 lb seating variation on the K&M pressure gauge, dont worry about that. From your description I would increase neck tension to .004+ and or find a different seating depth that is not so picky.

Do/did you clean primer pockets?

 

[dkhunt14]

I would increase neck tension to .004+

This is not possible. Tension = Springback
Even WSSM necks, at 20thou+ thickness, will not springback more than 3thou.
Normal thickness necks springback 1-2thou max, so any sizing beyond 1-2thou under cal is purely over-working of the brass.

Is this why so many here think annealing is constantly needed?

Note that competitors who use N-133 in their 6 PPC's typically use a .256 bushing on a .260 loaded round (.262 neck chambering). Despite the fact that they typically use the same 25 cases for a 100/200 yd agg match, they aren't known to carry around an annealing machine. When I shot N-133, the neck tension afforded by the .256 bushing provided the best results.

Whether you think its possible or not, it shows on the target. Sometimes you just have to do what works not what you think works.

I agree that it shows on the target at 1000 and I sometimes even use more. The strain gauge on the same set of brass also shows it changes. I usually don't say much on this subject because of all the negative feedback on neck tension. We tested this on more then one gun and kept track of gauge readings and what the vertical looked like. I also agree they have to be consistent on seating pressure. I clean to bare brass and use something to keep them from welding. Matt

 

[mikecr]

To begin, there is currently no gauge that measures neck tension. A 'strain gauge' does not. Our seating force gauges do not.
The term 'tension' applies to grip, and not friction, and not interference fit. It is bullet grip that affects pressure.
Grip is purely a matter of spring back applied to the seated bearing area of our bullets.

Anyone can test this on the bench,, I just did with some new-brown box 6br I'm getting ready to turn, to provide some numbers.
It's 13thou thick at the necks X2 + .243 is .269"
I 265 bushing sized and get an unloaded OD of .264" (-5thou)
I seat a Berger and confirm loaded OD of .269"
I then pull that bullet and unloaded OD is ~.2688" (I can re-seat with force of hand)

This was 5thou of sizing, and you need to understand that tension never exceeded spring back, which was near zero in this case, because it's with a new/annealed neck. There was plenty of seating force with that interference fit, in squeaky clean neck, but seating force is meaningless here.
To raise tension I could cycle size to harden the necks. It takes a good number of cycles at this sizing amount to raise spring back even to ~1thou. 50cycles might get me ~2thou of spring back,, maybe. So where it's suggested that frequent annealing is needed, I have to assume gross oversizing(like some of it suggested around here).

I should repeat; Grip/Tension is purely a matter of spring back applied to the seated bearing area of our bullets. The greater the spring back(1-3thou max, ~1thou normal), and the area applied, the greater the tension. This can be manipulated, controlled, and measured across a chrono.
I do it by managing my brass hardness, and adjusting LENGTH of neck sizing(not amount). My length of sizing usually remains onto seated bearing.

It is possible to increase 'effective' tension beyond actual spring back, by sizing more neck length than seated bearing in it. It's effective in that the bullet is not released until all the stored neck energy is overcome. This is the only way downsizing beyond spring back can still affect tension. But keep in mind this is effective tension, and not actual. Much like seating bearing into donut can increase effective tension, regardless of sizing amount.

I don't believe it's right to imply that reloaders should blindly go with sizing in excess of spring back. I'm confident that in most cases, by far, excess sizing provides no advantage, but detriment.

 

[C. Collins]

I didn't read all the replies, but I do have some thoughts.
#1 I think you have some good ideas but I think your chasing the rabbit down the wrong hole.
#2 If the load is sensitive to COAL or more important base to ogive, start by sorting the bullets length.
#3 If you are looking into keeping your brass dirty to seat the bullets with a bit more ease try coating your bullets a dry bullet lube, or don't clean your brass, anneal, then use a bushing die to neck size.
These are things I would look into.

 

[LHSmith]

Mikecr- You can theorize till the cows come home. Fact is a .256 bushing gives the best tune to a 6 PPC when using N-133 with 67/68 gr. FB bullets.....and it seems to work for more than a few nationally ranked BR competitors. I have never experienced a split neck in the PPC yet, and before I began to anneal I got past a dozen firings on cases with no problems.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

I have consistently held 4" vertical (10 shots) at 1k by shooting, cleaning outside of neck with steel wool, anneal, size, brush inside of neck with nylon brush, clean pockets, load.

Alex -

When do you size?
(I'm guessing that is your meaning when you say "load", and would come after your above steps)

Also, when you were testing non-annealed brass in comparison, did you have as much variance in the seating force as the annealed? or how did the two play out in comparison to seating force? (you probably told me, but can't remember)

Donovan

I fixed it.

Donovan, when I was testing annealed vs all season long I found that unannealed wanted to shoot smaller. That was until I started to size the neck .004" I was using .0025" I do not disagree with Mikecr that the neck is yielding when you seat a bullet. No doubt about it. And from that one point of view its correct that it should not make a difference once you hit the yield point. But it is obvious to me that some thing else is at play here. Theory aside, I have a season's worth of targets that show it matters. And its not just me. Tom has found the same thing. Also, the seating force was extremely consistent with annealed brass, unannealed was bad, 15lb es, but it shot smaller. Seating force is a measurement of friction and IMO doesnt mean a hill of beans on target. Neck tension is the grip of the case neck around the bullet. It could just be that the extra sizing and yielding of the case neck just work hardens the neck a little more and that is why it shoots better. But to say there is no benefit to sizing over .002 just shows shortsightedness and inexperience IMO.

 

[dmoran]

Alex -
Thanks for the reply.... that is what I was thinking, far as the "seating force", but couldn't remember.
Donovan

 

[BoydAllen]

In some cases there is a factor at work that goes unaccounted for. If the bullet shank ends in the sized part of the neck, a step forms behind it, that varies with the difference between the diameter of the sized neck, and that of the neck over the seated bullet. The maximum length to which you can seat, without the bullet being pushed back as the round is chambers depends on several things. I think that the bigger this step is, the farther the bullet can be seated into the rifling without moving as it is chambered, because it takes more force to push the bullet past the step. This might explain how necks sized small enough that they yield as bullets are seated, would give different results than expected.

 

[Joe Salt]

Boyd and Mike to me if it takes more force to seat the bullet, that means the necks are tighter! Correct. I've been using tight necks for a long time and feel it does make a difference at 1000 yards, at 100 or 200 I can't tell. I'm necking my 300 WSM with a 327 bushing, then I run a 303 Gage pin inside, I can tell by the feel which ones are tighter than others. That is how I separate them, but I also use moly in the necks when seating the bullets this will also disguises the feel of the seating depth. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think so!

Joe Salt

 

[effendude]

Drew,
This is what I do for Lisa's BRX which you know shoots. It is a combination of learned steps/shortcuts over several years. Jon Clauson does nearly the same thing.

1) Clean the carbon and soot off the exterior of the case, especially the neck with Ballistol and paper towels. If I get lax and the cases sit for a while, I often use a strip of Scotch-Brite to really shine up the neck. The more freshly fired the case, the better.
2) I deprime with a punch and small hammer now instead of using a depriming die. It might be me, but it seems to knock some of the carbon and crud out of the inside of the case when the last tap of the hammer bumps the bottom of the case. I then turn the case upside down and tap it lightly.
3) Wipe case neck/shoulder area with alcohol to clean up any Ballistol reside that remains.
4) Anneal
5) Size case with a neck bushing die (type s FL die or the Forster neck/shoulder bump die) with the center pin removed
6) One stroke in and out of the case neck with a nylon brush
7) Prime, dump powder, seat the bullet with an arbor press
8) Watch the ammo shoot a national record! ;D
Scott

 

[mikecr]

Boyd brings up a good point where jammed is a given and also a difficulty. In his scenario, sizing length beyond bullet bearing creates a donut(or 'step'), which could be used to work-around a jamming 'problem'(soft seating).
This would be rare enough that it doesn't really encroach on my contentions about oversizing for the populace, while at the same time explaining improvements from folks ever reaching for more & more pressure(pressure node).

Joe, what I was trying to explain(maybe horribly) is that 'tighter' seating is often independent and certainly separate of tension.
Let's try an extreme example:
I downsize .250 length of neck a full 10thou under cal.
I seat bullet bearing .250 deep in the neck(the sized portion).
While seating that bullet took so much force it produced screeching sound and possible jacket & nose damage, the tension gripping that bullet is still no more than spring back of that neck.
In essence, you only expanded that neck with a bullet instead of an expander(and bullets make terrible neck expanders). And you can see clearly how much spring back was gripping the neck by pulling that ruined bullet and measuring neck OD.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Boyd, you are definitely right about the step behind the pressure ring. I would be able to seat the bullet deeper into the lands. But, I am jumping. ;D

Mike, we all know what your trying to say. Its pretty common knowledge that the grip of the neck on the bullet is independent of the friction required to seat the bullet. But there are other factors than just that. Enough of us have actually tested this to know. I dont know why, but it does show on target.

To the OP, do not be scared to go up to .005 or .006 of neck tension. It is no different than anything else, there will be a spot the gun likes.

 

[Joe Salt]

Z Thats all I look for is what the gun likes! I know there probably is a limit to everything we do but I guess we have to find it.

Joe salt

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Hi Tom, Happy Kwanzaa to you! When are you coming back to MT? Will you need a 21 day quarantine?

They came after. They are not secrets, you know that. Get a lucky barrel, lucky conditions, lucky lot of bullets, and find the right load.