Advice on annealing and carbon in the neck

[skiutah02]

Trying to up my game next season and I have a particularly finicky load that has proved to be testing my tenacity. It's the notorious 90vld in 223 REM. My load holds 0.8-1.1" vertical at 300 (10 shots) and sub 3" vertical (or less) at 600 but one flier in 10 shots opens it to about 3" or a little over (i.e. sometimes I get 2.7" for 10 shots and other time 3.4"). It is just too tantalizing not to pursue as 7-8 shots will regularly hold about 2". It has proved to be very sensitive to seating depth and neck tension (at the least) so I am currently concentrating on this element. Systematically working on eliminating the cause. Yes, it certainly could be me.

Here goes. 1) I have proved to myself that frequent annealing helps with consistency with this load and that leaving carbon in the neck also helps with consistency with this load. Problem is that I have been tumbling in SS media for 1/2 hour or so before I anneal so that the carbon on the neck does not burn, so I have not been able to do both as yet. So before I trash good lapua brass I'm wondering from those that anneal every firing (and some that leave carbon in the neck) are you annealing without cleaning the neck? I know that some graphite the bullet/neck to help, but if I can avoid that step I'd like to know. Already well down the rabbit hole....

In short, should you (must you?) thoroughly clean the neck before annealing to maintain the consistency desired from annealing every firing?

 

[coford]

I am really more concerned about the carbon left on the outside of the case neck than I am about the carbon inside. Carbon on the outside changes the way the heat penetrates. To eliminate the outside carbon I simply wipe the outside clean with Balistol and a patch. it is easy and takes only a second or two to remove all the carbon. The Balistol works easier the sooner after firing you use it. For the carbon inside the neck I just run a nylon brush in and out once - no more. This is to dislodge loose particles and dirt but to not remove the carbon.

My F-Class rifles hold great vertical by annealing each time and following the process above.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[LHSmith]

Since carbon has a melting point in excess of 7000' F., I don't see how carbon fouling inside the neck will alter it's physical properties at the annealing temperatures of brass.
I cleaned my PPC brass over the winter with ss pins and as a result had seating force issues and a terrible start to the competition season.....even though I lubed the super clean necks with Imperial dry neck lube. I have since resorted to my old clean regime of using NevR Dull or Krazy Kloth. I also had pins stuck in the flash holes of .222 brass, and one must be ever vigilant to ensure that all the pins and water are out of the case before reloading.

 

[Joe R]

skiutah02 said:
Here goes. 1) I have proved to myself that frequent annealing helps with consistency with this load and that leaving carbon in the neck also helps with consistency with this load. Problem is that I have been tumbling in SS media for 1/2 hour or so before I anneal so that the carbon on the neck does not burn, so I have not been able to do both as yet. So before I trash good lapua brass I'm wondering from those that anneal every firing (and some that leave carbon in the neck) are you annealing without cleaning the neck? I know that some graphite the bullet/neck to help, but if I can avoid that step I'd like to know. Already well down the rabbit hole....

In short, should you (must you?) thoroughly clean the neck before annealing to maintain the consistency desired from annealing every firing?

If you:
1. deprime
2. tumble with ss pins ( 3/4 tbs of dawn, 1/4 tsp of Lemi-Shine, 1 hour max)
3. anneal

You will notice that the bullet requires more force to seat. And its performance on target will deteriorate. Some guys resort to putting graphite for their necks, others dip the bottom of their bullets in various kinds of lubricants to mitigate this grabby effect. I theorize that the heat of the annealing process raises the grain of the brass making it grabby/rough.

However if you:
1. de-prime
2. anneal
3. tumble with ss pins ( 3/4 tbs of dawn, 1/4 tsp of Lemi-Shine, 1 hour max)

The tumbling process with the ss pins will clean and polish your brass inside (including the necks) and out. Making the whole seating process smooth as silk. Of course you don't have to take my word for it. Try it both ways and see.

Kindest regards,

Joe

 

[racesnake]

My cleaning, and annealing process is as follows: deprime, clean with hot water with a squirt of liquid detergent and a pinch of Lim e Shine and tumble for 15-30 min. with no ss pins. The cases are then annealed, sized and loaded. This is much easier than screwing around with those pesky little pins! Bullets seat uniformly without excess pressure. Since using this method I have found that my verticals have decreased dramatically.
Dave

 

[JamesnTN]

I've found after annealing my brass I use a power drill and a nylon brush and run it in and out of the case necks, this for what ever reason doesn't give that grabby feel as mentioned on seating a bullet.

 

[mikecr]

There is no reason to take neck insides to squeaky clean. The carbon is our friend.

 

[gotcha]

+1 for both of the above

 

[Joe R]

skiutah02 said:
In short, should you (must you?) thoroughly clean the neck before annealing to maintain the consistency desired from annealing every firing?

If you don't start with clean brass how do you know that you have the same amount of carbon in the necks, therefore same neck tension in the cases after each firing? If consistency is desired I don't see another way. Maybe someone can educate me.

Additionally, carbon collects in the corner of the case (head) and it changes volume (admittedly in tiny amounts) of the case and therefore pressure. So with each reload you're going to get cumulative differences. Does that sound like it is conducive to consistency?

I do know for a fact ( I spoke to one of their techs) that Federal anneals and then polishes (with ss pins) all their commercial brass prior to loading FGMM ammo. Think about it, if carbon was so good why don't they use any?. Why not remove another variable?


Merry Christmas to all of you and your loved ones.

Joe

 

[skiutah02]

Appreciate the comments so far. I expected that there might be some differences of opinion, but if people are annealing their brass after each firing and not cleaning out the necks before they do and are able to preserve consistency that is what I was after. Sooooo many variables it can really exhaust the inner scientist. Feel free to keep'm coming.

Drew

 

[jonbearman]

If you use the .047 pins you wont have them stuck in the flash holes anymore. Just a thought. STM sells the bigger ones now I believe.

 

[JamesnTN]

skiutah02 said:
In short, should you (must you?) thoroughly clean the neck before annealing to maintain the consistency desired from annealing every firing?

If you don't start with clean brass how do you know that you have the same amount of carbon in the necks, therefore same neck tension in the cases after each firing? If consistency is desired I don't see another way. Maybe someone can educate me.

Additionally, carbon collects in the corner of the case (head) and it changes volume (admittedly in tiny amounts) of the case and therefore pressure. So with each reload you're going to get cumulative differences. Does that sound like it is conducive to consistency?

I do know for a fact ( I spoke to one of their techs) that Federal anneals and then polishes (with ss pins) all their commercial brass prior to loading FGMM ammo. Think about it, if carbon was so good why don't they use any?. Why not remove another variable?


Merry Christmas to all of you and your loved ones.

Joe

Joe,

I use one of the 21st century presses with the strain guage attachment. I can visually see the pressure it takes to seat each of my rounds. Trial and error over the years has lead me to my loading process of today. If I get a case neck squeaky clean it will change my seating pressure nd in return affects my accuracy considerably.
I ran a test just not long ago doing the following

Neck sized only, tumbled brass
Bump shoulder and neck only with tumbled brass and brushed necks
Annealed and neck sized only with tumbled brass and brushed necks
Annealed bump shoulder and neck size only and tumbled brass
Annealed neck sized only and ran brush into neck without tumbled brass
Annealed bump shoulder and neck size and brushed neck and tumbled brass.

The most consistent load I had was the bump and neck size with tumbled brass With brushed necks
Next was the neck sized only and neck brushed.
Smallest group was neck sized only but it was as consistent due to some cases wee tighter than others.
Worse of the bunch was anything fresh annealed and nothing done to the necks as in brushing them.

The cases that weren't annealed had three firings on them.

If my memory serves correctly a annealed case with a squeaky clean neck seating pressure was like 60#
With some carbon in the neck and a brush ran thru the neck seating pressure is 8#
That's a big difference and the groups also told me that it does not like that at all.
At 500 yards the differences in the groups were 4+" now in a match if you shoot just one 4" group your toast for the rest of the match at 600 yards.

 

[skiutah02]

Joe,

I use one of the 21st century presses with the strain guage attachment. I can visually see the pressure it takes to seat each of my rounds. Trial and error over the years has lead me to my loading process of today. If I get a case neck squeaky clean it will change my seating pressure nd in return affects my accuracy considerably.
I ran a test just not long ago doing the following

Neck sized only, tumbled brass
Bump shoulder and neck only with tumbled brass and brushed necks
Annealed and neck sized only with tumbled brass and brushed necks
Annealed bump shoulder and neck size only and tumbled brass
Annealed neck sized only and ran brush into neck without tumbled brass
Annealed bump shoulder and neck size and brushed neck and tumbled brass.

The most consistent load I had was the bump and neck size with tumbled brass With brushed necks
Next was the neck sized only and neck brushed.
Smallest group was neck sized only but it was as consistent due to some cases wee tighter than others.
Worse of the bunch was anything fresh annealed and nothing done to the necks as in brushing them.

The cases that weren't annealed had three firings on them.

If my memory serves correctly a annealed case with a squeaky clean neck seating pressure was like 60#
With some carbon in the neck and a brush ran thru the neck seating pressure is 8#
That's a big difference and the groups also told me that it does not like that at all.
At 500 yards the differences in the groups were 4+" now in a match if you shoot just one 4" group your toast for the rest of the match at 600 yards.

James,

Just to make sure that I am following, on your most consistent load, you did not freshly anneal (i.e. you had several firings since last annealing . Is that correct? Good stuff either way. Drew

 

[JamesnTN]

Joe,

I use one of the 21st century presses with the strain guage attachment. I can visually see the pressure it takes to seat each of my rounds. Trial and error over the years has lead me to my loading process of today. If I get a case neck squeaky clean it will change my seating pressure nd in return affects my accuracy considerably.
I ran a test just not long ago doing the following

Neck sized only, tumbled brass
Bump shoulder and neck only with tumbled brass and brushed necks
Annealed and neck sized only with tumbled brass and brushed necks
Annealed bump shoulder and neck size only and tumbled brass
Annealed neck sized only and ran brush into neck without tumbled brass
Annealed bump shoulder and neck size and brushed neck and tumbled brass.

The most consistent load I had was the bump and neck size with tumbled brass With brushed necks
Next was the neck sized only and neck brushed.
Smallest group was neck sized only but it was as consistent due to some cases wee tighter than others.
Worse of the bunch was anything fresh annealed and nothing done to the necks as in brushing them.

The cases that weren't annealed had three firings on them.

If my memory serves correctly a annealed case with a squeaky clean neck seating pressure was like 60#
With some carbon in the neck and a brush ran thru the neck seating pressure is 8#
That's a big difference and the groups also told me that it does not like that at all.
At 500 yards the differences in the groups were 4+" now in a match if you shoot just one 4" group your toast for the rest of the match at 600 yards.

James,

Just to make sure that I am following, on your most consistent load, you did not freshly anneal (i.e. you had several firings since last annealing . Is that correct? Good stuff either way. Drew

Drew,

Yes my most consistent loads tested were the non annealed brass. From my findings I loose a little bit of accuracy from my first firing on annealed brass. Usually I find my best accuracy from 2-5 firings after annealing. That's my findings though. Usually by the time I get to the fith firing I can see the groups begin to open up just a tad and that's when I anneal once again. Now when I say I say loose accuracy I'm talking usually 1/2" difference at 600 yards. I base this accuracy loss not on the annealed process but my neck tension. It seems I find I get a bit tighter neck tension on my annealed cases Than I do after they have been fired. My next time i anneal I'm going to get some moly neck lube and see if I can somehow restore the neck tension on my fresh annealed cases.
Now I know some guys anneal after every firing and do well. I'm also pretty positive they worked at getting the correct neck tension on those annealed cases as well, maybe they are using a bigger neck bushing I don't know.

 

[racesnake]

Here's something strange that I ran into a while back. I had a 240NM that used 22-250 brass as a starting point. I used 2 different lots of brass; winchester and lapua. My chamber was a turned-neck and neck walls were turned to 0.0125". I shot this brass 3-4 times before annealing. After annealing the bullets seated with normal pressure in the lapua brass but the winchester required excessive force to seat. Can anyone explain what was going on here?
Dave

 

[savagedasher]

The first thing I do is clean the neck and shoulder out side. Vibrate them in a 50 50 mix of corn cob and walnut. I then lite anneal and size the brass. I get a very lite change color in the brass. I then vibrate again. The inside of the neck is a polished black color. When I seat the bullets the pressure is 20 to 25 oz. My ES is normally 3 or less. That is with the brass I have sorted by H20 water capacity.
Merry Christmas Larry

 

[mikecr]

After annealing the bullets seated with normal pressure in the lapua brass but the winchester required excessive force to seat. Can anyone explain what was going on here?

The answer lies in your sizing routine. It sounds like you don't pre-expand necks before seating, but just guessing.
Annealing reduces springback and therefore bullet tension. Seating forces are another matter as separate.
Also, seating forces should not be credited beyond qualification, and same with frequent annealing, or any other reloading trend(which come & go). These things need to be understood at the local bench, and where not, assumptive actions could be reckless rather than beneficial.

JamesTN's observations should open our eyes to this potential.

 

[CatShooter]

Here's something strange that I ran into a while back. I had a 240NM that used 22-250 brass as a starting point. I used 2 different lots of brass; winchester and lapua. My chamber was a turned-neck and neck walls were turned to 0.0125". I shot this brass 3-4 times before annealing. After annealing the bullets seated with normal pressure in the lapua brass but the winchester required excessive force to seat. Can anyone explain what was going on here?
Dave

You didn't say how you annealed, but some things ccome to mind.

The brass alloy of Winchester and Lapua are not the same, plus, Lapua changed alloys at some point between the box colour changes... was your Lapua brown box of blue box.

Also, how did you anneal the cases - some guys use templaq and heat to around 600-800 degrees, and some guys use higher temperatures (glowing dark red neck).

There are a lot of variables - most of them are not as important as people tell you... as long as you do the cases consistently.

 

[racesnake]

A couple of things that I neglected to insert in my first post. I do resize my necks with a mandrel and I anneal cases to a dark red glow. I think catshooter is probably correct about the different alloys causing the problem but once the the cases were loaded and fired after annealing the seating pressures became the same as far as I could tell using the seat-of-the-pants method. The lapua brass was brown box.
Dave

 

[Joe R]

JamesnTN said:

Joe,

I use one of the 21st century presses with the strain guage attachment. I can visually see the pressure it takes to seat each of my rounds. Trial and error over the years has lead me to my loading process of today...

James,
Very interesting stuff, and I appreciate you passing that hard-earned know-how to a newbie like me.

I once saw a video of someone using the bullet seater with a strain gauge attachment. I use a Sinclair harbor press and a Wilson seating die, do you know if there is any way to attach a strain gauge to that setup?

Kindest regards,

Joe