Advice needed on F/TR load development.

[Erik Cortina]

Shooting groups at 100 yards in calm winds doesn't realy tell you anything other than the load shoots great... in calm conditions.

Tune at 300 yards and use wind flags.

Next time you're at a F-Class match ask TR shooters what kind of groups does their rifle shoot at 100 yards. Most will tell you they don't have a clue.

I bet you would be surprised to know how many tune at 100 yards. I'm a F-Open shooter, and I can tell you how my gun shoots at 100, and I'm also willing to bet my gun shoots better than yours at 1000! ;D

 

[aj300mag]

I'm also willing to bet my gun shoots better than yours at 1000!

Well I would hope so. I shoot the true intent of F-Class... F-TR. Not belly benchrest.

 

[Boisblancboy]

Shooting groups at 100 yards in calm winds doesn't realy tell you anything other than the load shoots great... in calm conditions.

The bullet doesn't care if the wind is blowing or not, it's all how the shooter is able to read it. Unless there are specific loads out there that someone has found that shoot good groups at 100 yds but better groups when the wind is blowing.

 

[Erik Cortina]

I'm also willing to bet my gun shoots better than yours at 1000!

Well I would hope so. I shoot the true intent of F-Class... F-TR. Not belly benchrest.

I'm not interested in going into F-T/R vs. Open.

Back to topic. Can anyone explain to me why testing at 100 yards is a waste of time?

 

[aj300mag]

You can have a load that isn't tuned shoot well at 100 yards in calm conditions. Add wind and the bullet drift will be greater for a given wind value than it would if the load was in tune. Short range Benchrest shooters deal with this issue all the time.

 

[broncman]

Shooting groups at 100 yards in calm winds doesn't realy tell you anything other than the load shoots great... in calm conditions.

Tune at 300 yards and use wind flags.

Next time you're at a F-Class match ask TR shooters what kind of groups does their rifle shoot at 100 yards. Most will tell you they don't have a clue.

I disagree...I shoot FTR...and when doing load development I want as little influence from the wind as possible. I want to know It was the load and NOT a missed wind call!

A lot of us on the are not blessed with flat ranges. Sometimes we shoot across draws and valleys wherr you cant put flags etc. so a flat good 100 yard range is great for load development.

300 beyond TESTS YOU! Your wind skills etc. 100 yards iver a chrony to get es/sd and then move on!

 

[aj300mag]

A good article...

http://www.6mmbr.com/laddertest.html

 

[mac86951]

I am picking up a Savage FTR to shoot in F/TR. I am not a novice reloader but far from being an expert. I have in the past developed loads for a couple of rifles based on common agreed upon components. However, developing a load specifically for this discipline has me a little concerned. First off should I just develop one load for the rifle and shoot it both at 1K and mid-range or do I need a specific load for each distance?

Secondly, for this rifle when it first came out everyone was shooting some type of 155gr projectile and saying this was the best. Lately others have been gravitating towards heaver choices. Which is better, a heaver bullet that will buck the wind or a lighter bullet with a better BC and MV?

Lastly, I have always worked up a load by developing one that shoots the best at 100 yards, first by amount of powder then seating depth. Once I came across a load that would shoot less than .5 MOA I was good, My only constant is using Lapua brass and usually Varget powder. Is there a better way to do this?


Thanks for all the help

Diego

Good Questions Diego. There are many answers as you have read, and I see that someone has already put up the post to ladder testing.

100y, 600y, 1000y all have similarities in reloading procedure, however, there are some differences too.
First and foremost, regardless of what your process is be sure to test at the range you want to shoot. This may mean just trying your loads at competition. Be sure to keep working on it as you'll find many conditions where you'll want to improve. This is usually when you switch bullets.

Depending on your rifle, you may find a bullet that does just fine for across the course shooting. Or like the rest of us, you may find that 1000y shots are more sensitive to variation and wind than a 100y shot and instead of perfecting our marksmanship and wind-reading skills we load a heavier or higher BC, or faster velocity cartridge. I'll leave that debate for you to research as there are plenty of posts on this forum and others.

That said, I know of plenty of shooters who shoot across the course with 308 and the 168 Matchking and do quite well. I know others that have different loads for the different ranges, they too do quite well. In any given match, someone who has had more practice and knows where the bullet will travel for that load on that day will shoot best. Reloading for any distance is about getting the rifle to perform consistently at the target distance during the shooting conditions. Then it is up to the shooter to make that happen.

With F/TR you've got to work it from both ends, make a good load for your rifle where ladder testing, group testing, etc... can help you there, and then practice in all kinds of conditions to know where the bullet will go at the distance you are going to shoot it. From there, like shampoo, its rinse and repeat. As you can see from the other posts here, there is a LOT of discussion going on whether 100y groups, or 300y groups give you a better load, I'll go out on a limb and say a good load can be developed using any method so long as the reloader fully understands the method and conditions in which the load was developed. When you get unexpected results, go back and figure out what error in condition or method and test your theory.

-Mac

 

[aj300mag]

Belly benchrest is derogatory?

Here I was thinking its a good definition of F-Open...

Long range benchrest rifles, heavy benchrest rest, bench rest rear bags filled with heavy sand. Did I miss anything?

 

[Erik Cortina]

Belly benchrest is derogatory?

Here I was thinking its a good definition of F-Open...

Long range benchrest rifles, heavy benchrest rest, bench rest rear bags filled with heavy sand. Did I miss anything?

Yeah, no benches!

 

[aj300mag]

Your shooting talent might have something to do with your success.

Honestly, you and Eric are the first to suggest tuning loads at 100 yards that I've read.

 

[Boisblancboy]

While I agree shooting talent definitely plays a part but if your groups are garbage your not going to be successful. It takes both in this sport.

I'm doubting that Steve got lucky to be close to a national record because he didn't test beyond 100 yds.

 

[eric32]

Your shooting talent might have something to do with your success.

Honestly, you and Eric are the first to suggest tuning loads at 100 yards that I've read.

my reason behind is this

208 amax @ 2500-2520FPS

A 1/2 inch group @ 100 = 5.2 inches @ 1000yards
20FPS ES is a 7 inch vertical at 1000yards

with that load its within the 10 ring and if i do a good job ill get some X's outta of a 20 shot string, i am not a national champion, nor have i won any match i have ever shot. But that aint the guns fault when i drop a point, ill will tell you that much.

 

[mac86951]

I'm also willing to bet my gun shoots better than yours at 1000!

Well I would hope so. I shoot the true intent of F-Class... F-TR. Not belly benchrest.

I'm not interested in going into F-T/R vs. Open.

Back to topic. Can anyone explain to me why testing at 100 yards is a waste of time?

I still do it. I use 100y for my pressure testing, then working backward from pressure testing looking at groups.
5 shot groups tighten up as you near an accurate load. It also gives plenty of practice too. Then I do ladder testing
around those loads to further develop them. Way easier to do that instead of shooting 600y with untested loads in a 20mph crosswind right off the bat. (SW springs are ALWAYS windy).

The F/TR Shooter might as well do all of the load testing prone, if only for the practice.

-Mac

 

[Trevor60]

Hi Erik i would never say you were wrong. I would suggest that the methodology using 300 instead of 100 would show a clearly defined vertical; and you will have to forgive me i am not sure who Steve Blair is.

please see my responses in italic

I would have to agree with mystic and AJ300mag on this one. What you are looking for at 300 yards is vertical, the horizontal could me a foot wide as long as the vertical is less then 3x 30cal holes tall. At 100, gun handling is more apparent and a poor shot could wreak a good group or more importantly an outstanding hold could show a load that is sub par to be better then it is. I could shoot a .5 inch group with a great load and a .40 inch group with an ok load and find out that the 2nd load is crap at distance.

Trevor

Wow! Ok Trevor, I have some questions. If you can answer them then I will admit that I was wrong, and for that matter, Steven Blair would be wrong as well. ;D

How is gun handling more apparent at 100 yards than at longer distance?

the aiming point is much more clearly defined at 100 then at 300 or 1,000

Does that mean that at 1,000 yards gun handling doesn't matter?

No i would never suggest that; but what i would suggest is that i could split a bullet hole into quadrants at 100 which i can not do at 300. (if i were to use the same target size at both distances).

How can a bad shot wreck a group at 100 and not at 300?

It wouldn't... if we look at the 2 pictures we can clearly see one group had a bad shot but what if we could say the one hole group had a bad shot as well. at 100 yards is not as clearly defined as at 300. At 300 i could have a clearer picture of what the other 4 bullets did and could include or discard the flyer ( i never discard i re-test promising groups). i don't get that luxury with the 100 yard group with the bullets holes being stacked on top of one another if we look at the 2nd photo and moved the 12 o'clock flyer to the 9 o'clock side on the same vertical plane i would think that would be an outstanding load almost zero vertical

How can an outstanding hold make a bad load shoot great?

It wouldn't that is my point a bad load at 100 could look better because of the shooters ability to shoot

How can you have foot wide horizontal at 300 yards and trust that load?

the foot horizontal was more of a comment on saying the importance of vertical over horzitional

How can a great load shoot .5" groups and an ok load shoot .4" groups?

i didn't say groupS i said group and i will answer you question with a question how many time do you test a load that you think didn't work?

Thanks
Trevor

 

[Erik Cortina]

Trevor, Steven Blair is sleepygator.

I can tell you that the 100 yard group you posted is not a good group. When I test at 100 yards and see a group like that I know I have work to do.

Trevor, shooter ability can't make a bad shooting gun shoot good.

 

[kelbro]

Prior to shooting F-Class, I saw many loads (for sporter barreled hunting rifles) that looked good at 100 open up at 200-300. Also saw loads that shot very well at 200 or 300 and weren't that tight at 100. My best .270 300yd load would have been dismissed had I fired it at 100 first.

 

[mysticplayer]

Why I test at further distances....

Consider these two scenerios:

At 100yds, you shoot 2 loads that are essentially the same group size but are separated by a tenth or two of powder (yes, I weigh to a high level of precision). Certainly no more then 1/2gr even in something as large as a RUM.

Which do you choose? Who cares, they do exactly the same thing....

Now take those 2 loads and shoot again at 300yds, I bet one of them will show far less vertical then the other.

GROUP SIZE WILL LIKELY BE THE SAME in calm air BUT the orientation will be different.

Repeat a few times just to prove that there is a difference.

Guess what... as distance increases, that vertical dispersion gets much worse and the groups size eventually falls apart. Falling apart as in loosing shots out the edges of the scoring ring

Of course this assumes you are shooting in a consistent and repeatable manner. And your rifle, load, and optics are of a quality to let you shoot with less then 1/4 min of vertical at distance.

So we aren't masking bad technique at all. We are enhancing load induced bullet dispersion. You just dont see it at short range.

I have tried this for over a decade on a heap load of rifles in all manner of chambering from small to super kaboomers. They all show the same thing and because they are repeatable, it is a process that anyone can duplicate.

Give it a try...

As to the Chronie, I gave up on using chronie generated data a long time ago. I do not have access to Oehlers and the common garden variety devices have built in errors higher then the numbers we try to crunch.

I let the target tell the tale and with good notes, I have a very good idea of how my load tuning is changing through both ambient condition changes but also as the barrel ages.

I have several load tuning articles on my website in the Tech section.

www.mysticprecison.com

Works for me... maybe it will also work for you.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrhB29UIpJ4[/youtube]

Ultimately, this is what I am trying to achieve. 500m and the mojo was working good. Just fast forward through the video as I uploaded in real time... kind of slow.

0:04, 1:45, 2:20, 2:53, 3:20 if you want to see the impacts and speed up the video.

223/90gr, 7 twist Shilen prefit on my Savage FTR rifle. MPOD and protektor rear bag.

Jerry

 

[Erik Cortina]

Ok, let's cut through the chase, those of you that tune further than 100 yards what do your 1000 yard groups look like?

And I use a chronograph for load development, an Oehler 35.

 

[ARIZONA_F_CLASS]

Better!

5 shots @ 500 yards.

This was 2 weeks ago on a Saturday. This is a totally new bullet load. I shot 5 shot groups from 42.gr to 43.6gr Varget. For pressure signs and accuracy @ 500 yards. 42.4 was the best group. The next day I shot at a local match 581 22x and took second place. Yesterday with the same load I did a 588 29x and won my match. The best string was a 198 15x. I think it's a good load. I test at 500 yards so I can see what the load is going to do. If you shoot at a known distance, you should practice load development for that distance if possible.

I also shot without a crono, even though I have a Magneto speed. I shot to see what the accuracy is. Now I will crono to see how fast it is to see If I can get out to 1000 yards with it.