Advice needed on F/TR load development.

[Erik Cortina]

Also, if your load is affected by a "tenth or two" of powder you have a long way to go in learning precision handloading.

 

[mysticplayer]

sleepygator, the approach you take is pretty much inline with my process.

good scale controlling charge weight. I consider this a very important step in precision loading.

As I said, I do not have access to a top level chronie so it is no use using the numbers my device generates.

Never said ALL chronies were bad.

As long as the chronie gives me a ballpark on where my speeds are, that is all I need and I tune the rest on paper.

For showing changes in load tuning with small changes in powder charge, that is entirely up to the loader to find what works for them.

It is a process that I have proven to myself time and again on paper.

Try it when you are out practising. See if indeed a small change in charge weight can affect how your shooting goes. For a 308, I would consider 0.3gr a large enough charge step to show a difference using Varget.

Believe it, use it, or not, it's all good. As long as you have the confidence in your ammo to get the job done, that is ultimately all that we are trying to accomplish.

I try and take good ideas from all disciplines and it has helped develop a process that works for me. I just never know when an unlikely idea can help me on my way.

YMMV.

Jerry

 

[mysticplayer]

Ok, let's cut through the chase, those of you that tune further than 100 yards what do your 1000 yard groups look like?

And I use a chronograph for load development, an Oehler 35.

The only time we shot for group at 1km like a bench rest type shooting, we shot 3rd groups and scored, measured targets.

My f open rigs was shooting in the 3" to 5" range in moderate to strong winds - yes I was trying to take educated guesses as we scored after the shooting was done. My smallest group measured was 2 5/8"

close enough to know that rifle was shooting well enough.

The goal with my 308 FTR is to get into the sub 4" range at 1000yds. That would be excellent and make that X ring nice and big.

Still got snow but hope things melt enough to start LR testing soon. So far at 250yds, the rifle shows alot of promise to reach this goal

Keeping up with the winds, well, that is an entirely different story.
Jerry

 

[mysticplayer]

Also, if your load is affected by a "tenth or two" of powder you have a long way to go in learning precision handloading.

The most enlightening investment I ever made was buying a scale that would register my charge weight to +/- 0.02gr. So I knew, based on what the scale indicated, that my loads were within a very small range of error.

Helped me test a variety of things that were simply lost in the noise before.

I had originally been using a variety of stuff offered through the major reloading brands. I now know that the error of these devices is larger then I care for.

And like the chronie, dont get much if any use.

The only way to prove it if not using a scale rated to 0.02gr error, is to try it yourself

YMMV

Jerry

 

[broncman]

.02 ? Weighing to the hundreths if a grain?? My 185 juggernaut load only picked up 10fps from 43.5 to 43.7 grains and ed/sd were almost the same. Ed low teens and sd of about 6 best I remember....

So I load 43.6 so an error of 1/10th of a grain might be an average of 5 fps.

I had no vertical issues at 1000!

2/100th of a grain? That difference in velocity falls in the statistical range with background noise and voodoo...

I like to reload as it is relaxing.....

But I LOVE to shoot!

 

[Erik Cortina]

Ok, let's cut through the chase, those of you that tune further than 100 yards what do your 1000 yard groups look like?

And I use a chronograph for load development, an Oehler 35.

The only time we shot for group at 1km like a bench rest type shooting, we shot 3rd groups and scored, measured targets.

My f open rigs was shooting in the 3" to 5" range in moderate to strong winds - yes I was trying to take educated guesses as we scored after the shooting was done. My smallest group measured was 2 5/8"

close enough to know that rifle was shooting well enough.

The goal with my 308 FTR is to get into the sub 4" range at 1000yds. That would be excellent and make that X ring nice and big.

Still got snow but hope things melt enough to start LR testing soon. So far at 250yds, the rifle shows alot of promise to reach this goal

Keeping up with the winds, well, that is an entirely different story.
Jerry

I don't shoot 3 shot groups, so I can't comment on the size of my 3 shot groups. I shot 5 minimum to 20 max.

Does your open gun hold "X" ring vertical for an entire 20 shot match?

 

[kelbro]

Ok, let's cut through the chase, those of you that tune further than 100 yards what do your 1000 yard groups look like?

And I use a chronograph for load development, an Oehler 35.

I don't shoot 3 shot groups, so I can't comment on the size of my 3 shot groups. I shot 5 minimum to 20 max.

Does your open gun hold "X" ring vertical for an entire 20 shot match?

Yes. 1000yd groups are less than 5" vertical. Consistently.

This is a discussion forum. I have learned that there are as many ways to skin a cat (or three if you need some Varget ) as there are shooters. Many on here have been cooking up accurate loads longer than others have walked this earth. I enjoy reading all of the different techniques and then evaluating them on the target. Doesn't mean either way is right or wrong or best or worse.

My loads are never the reason for me not cleaning the match

 

[mysticplayer]

.02 ? Weighing to the hundreths if a grain?? My 185 juggernaut load only picked up 10fps from 43.5 to 43.7 grains and ed/sd were almost the same. Ed low teens and sd of about 6 best I remember....

So I load 43.6 so an error of 1/10th of a grain might be an average of 5 fps.

I had no vertical issues at 1000!

2/100th of a grain? That difference in velocity falls in the statistical range with background noise and voodoo...

I like to reload as it is relaxing.....

But I LOVE to shoot!

The 0.02gr is the ERROR in the scale NOT necessarily what I am loading to. I know that a readout to the 0.1gr IS within that tenth for all rds of ammo.

The error of the measuring device is SMALLER then the results I am measuring to.

Most reloading scales have a +/- 0.1gr accuracy so loads of up to 0.2gr variance is within spec. Some scales are worst so you can be as high as 0.4gr

With a 308, I have seen affects on target at lower variance rates so it is important to me.

The only way to know what your scale does is to compare on a more precise unit.

I have shot a ton of 223 in FTR over the last 2.5 yrs. Done well with it. Kept hearing how hard it was to tune and I know that shooter is using a generic scale.

Better scale, better results.

As for chronie number crunching, what type of chronie are you using? What is the rated error on the clock?

Most generic chronie have a 0.5% error rate in their clocks - ask manf, I have. That is +/- 15fps with a 3000fps readout.

The error in the machine is more then the values we are trying to crunch. Close enough to get a drop chart hitting a target but certainly of little value to do statistical analysis.

Again, not trying to convince anyone they need to change. Load what works for you. Just offering some ideas that have helped me over the years.

YMMV.

Jerry

 

[mysticplayer]

EC, short answer.... YES.

Mechanically, the rifle/load and set up will hold vertical tighter then the X ring at 1000yds.

The goal is 1/4 min vertical at all distances we compete at.

The driver.... well, that is a whole different story.
Jerry

 

[Erik Cortina]

EC, short answer.... YES.

Mechanically, the rifle/load and set up will hold vertical tighter then the X ring at 1000yds.

The goal is 1/4 min vertical at all distances we compete at.

The driver.... well, that is a whole different story.
Jerry

Let me rephrase that. Have you ever shot an entire 20 shot string where you held "X" ring vertical at 1,000 yards.

 

[mysticplayer]

We shoot 2+15 in Canada and Yes, 1/2 min vertical has been held. Coached a F Open cannon to pretty darn near 1/4 min vertical but those slugs just plowed through the winds..... impressive but more fun then my shoulder is going to handle.

If going to Raton this Aug, see if you can look at some plot sheets (not sure if you use them). Ideally, we want to see them all in the 10 ring but realistically, there will be outs. In general, that pattern will look like a rectangle on its side if we are doing our jobs.

In fact, I use any vertical change to be an aid in understanding the air and or winds. Didn't say I dont get blown high and low but that is a missed condition that I have to adapt to. Bumpy air is all too common.

WINDAGE? well, that is an entirely different story. Lets just say, I have had every number possible on a score card

I sense you are trying to extract a "gotcha" statement. That is too bad.

I am merely offering a helpful suggestion. Take it or leave it... that is up to you to decide.

Jerry

 

[Erik Cortina]

We shoot 2+15 in Canada and Yes, 1/2 min vertical has been held. Coached a F Open cannon to pretty darn near 1/4 min vertical but those slugs just plowed through the winds..... impressive but more fun then my shoulder is going to handle.

If going to Raton this Aug, see if you can look at some plot sheets (not sure if you use them). Ideally, we want to see them all in the 10 ring but realistically, there will be outs. In general, that pattern will look like a rectangle on its side if we are doing our jobs.

In fact, I use any vertical change to be an aid in understanding the air and or winds. Didn't say I dont get blown high and low but that is a missed condition that I have to adapt to. Bumpy air is all too common.

WINDAGE? well, that is an entirely different story. Lets just say, I have had every number possible on a score card

I sense you are trying to extract a "gotcha" statement. That is too bad.

I am merely offering a helpful suggestion. Take it or leave it... that is up to you to decide.

Jerry

Jerry, the problem with plot sheets is I can make one in about 1 minute that shows 1/8 MOA vertical for 20 shots.

Anyway, some of the Worlds best shooters will read your claim of "darn near 1/4 min vertical" at 1,000 yards or even 1/2 min vertical and just smile, shake their heads, and move on, I will have to do the same as I have been around the block a few times and can evaluate your statements better than most.

See you in Raton, you will be easy to spot, as you will be the one breaking all the World Records and will have all the gold medals around your neck! ;D

 

[aj300mag]

See you in Raton, you will be easy to spot, as you will be the one breaking all the World Records and will have all the gold medals around your neck!

Have you always been a condescending little dick?

 

[Erik Cortina]

See you in Raton, you will be easy to spot, as you will be the one breaking all the World Records and will have all the gold medals around your neck!

Have you always been a condescending little dick?

LOL

 

[mysticplayer]

EC, as expected you are riled up but please reread my post.

AFAIK, we shoot on a 2 dimensional target.

And no one has ever won entirely on vertical alone.... But you certainly can't without it.

I have little doubt that the shooters coming to the Worlds will have set ups that can hold 1/2 min or under vertical - assume of course that your X ring will still be sized 1/2 min and ROUND?.

I would say 1/3 min vertical would be demanded by most shooters.... most will strive for 1/4 min. Much more and shots are going to leak out the "corners"

Again, I assume that most shooters will consider the X ring as a viable target not something that happens at random. But we all have different strategies.

That leaves WINDAGE (that nasty 2nd axis) as the determinant to our success.... and whatever bumps Raton throws at us.

Maybe your approach is different?????

I am sure there are many waiting to hear how you would set up your rifles for this event?

What do you look for in your groups?

Jerry

 

[Erik Cortina]

Jerry, I guarantee you no one there will have a consistent 1/2 MOA gun, much less a 1/3 MOA or much less a 1/4 MOA gun at 1000 yards.

If my gun can keep every shot for the entire event under 1 MOA I will be very happy, but I don't think anyone there will even achieve that.

 

[Laurie]

The Jerry - Eric discussion intrigued me enough to look out the plotting sheets for what I knew were the best of my 20-round 1K matches, in particular one at Blair Atholl two years ago which saw me equal the then extant GB F-Class Assoc 1K 20-round F/TR match record of 96.9V (196.9x in US speak), one that has since been raised last year to 99.7V, but I'm sorry to say not by me.

The conditions in 'my match' were both unusual and ideal. A cool spring morning had seen a brief violent shower on the previous relay that finished just before my partner and I set up and gave a short window of as near perfect conditions as we'd ever see on this range outside of the post-dawn / evening periods. The wind nearly died - nearly as Blair is NEVER windless during the day - and the light was perfect without any mirage. I was shooting 223 with 90gn Berger VLDs at ~2.910 fps and the rifle / load had previously given a 4.88-inch 5-shot group in a UK BR Assoc bench rest match.

Remember we shoot pairs in the UK, but with Blair's electronic targets we get instant marking so we shot fast by our standards. Anyway, assuming my plotting sheets were accurately done, all 20 shots were in around 0.6-MOA elevation, and 14 were in ~half that, or 0.3-MOA. Of these, 9 or 10 would have just made 0.25-MOA and been in the bottom half of the V-Bull if perfectly centred windage wise.

This is my personal best 20-round 1K performance and it's no coincidence it was shot with the 223 whose recoil is so light that I can obtain tighter elevations than I'd usually see with my 308 F/TR rifles. It's very difficult to know what are reasonable 'ultimate elevation expectations' as the two ranges I do nearly all my 1K shooting on - Blair Atholl and Diggle - are both mountain valley locations and wind nearly always has some vertical effect as well as lateral - sometimes causing very serious elevation shifts.

I'm not going to get into this discussion, only report what I've seen. Shooting six national / international comps each season and shooting alternatively, I see my partner's shots and get a feel for his or her performance as well as my own. At Blair, we have the entire 40 shots + sighters remaining on the electronic scoring monitor screens after a match until they're cleared for the next relay. I've never seen a straight horizontal line pattern even from some of the world's best F/TR or F-Class competitors. What I have seen, and saw it very clearly at times in last November's F-Class European Championship meeting at Bisley when spectating as well as shooting is nearly every target along the line seeing shots drop or rise for no obvious reason - and this applies to F-Class as well as F/TR. In the final 1K individual match of this event watching the top F-Classers squadded together in the first post midday-break relay in light to medium left winds from around 8 o'clock, saw all but two of nearly 40 targets come up at one stage with a dropped point caused by a half-MOA + drop to a 6 o'clock impact just below the bull. Bisley is not at all a mountain range, but there was obviously a wind and/or changing light effect at play on elevations (no mirage again in this match) and I suspect we'd only ever know our rigs' true elevation abilities bench shooting in perfect conditions either immediately after sunrise on a perefectly still morning, or into a fine evening when the winds have died down. I've never shot a match in such conditions!

 

[Erik Cortina]

We have completely took over this thread with this discussion. I started another thread for this topic.

I believe this is an interesting discussion. Please continue here:
http://forum.accurateshooter.com/index.php?topic=3810654.new#new