Advice from an Old School Hunter

[wyshadow]

I’ve been messing with this Savage SA for the past several weeks. Both the action and stock I got used here, and the action screws didn’t line up. I drilled out the front action hole and installed another pillar. They both fit like a glove now, and I’m looking at putting on a short action caliber. I already shot a 243, 308, 6 Remington, 6 GT, 6 XC, and CM so I was wanting something new to me. After reading forums and blogs, and watching YT videos, I decided on a 7mm-08. The reason I decided on the 7mm-08 is it small enough in a SA and has the potential to use on elk if I got an elk tag one of these years.

Before I fully commit to the 7mm-08, I decided to ask a buddy I’ve known for the past ten years and has hunted almost everything. His place is a typical hunter’s house with a several walls mounted with a deer, elk, javelina, oryx, and has a huge metal building that contains a walk-in freezer and food processing equipment. Every year he gets elk and/or deer and usually invites me over every time he bags one for a party. All the years I’ve know him, I never asked him what is used for elk.

My friend is in his late 50s or in his early 60s and he doesn’t use a computer or even have a fancy smart phone. I would consider him very old school and very set in his ways so when I asked my question, I was very surprised by his answer.

He told me he uses a 7mm Rem Mag for elk which didn’t surprise me. I know a lot of hunters who use a 7mm Rem Mag but his reason for an elk cartridge has to deal with the amount of recoil. He told me I needed a rifle with a heavy recoil because you need a powerful rifle to take down an elk. He suggested to me a 7mm Rem Mag, 270, 30-06, or 300 win mag. He did mention a 308 but only if you can get within 100 yards of an elk. He didn’t feel like the 308 had enough of a recoil to take down an elk over 100 yards.

I told him I was thinking of installing a 7mm-08 but was told this was a bad idea because the 7mm-08 was made for people who couldn’t handle the recoil of the 308 and should only be used for deer and under.

I was totally surprised by this way of thinking and I wondered if this was the way everyone thought before the internet and before information was widely available. I wonder his thought if could get a 50 BMG to recoil a light as a 243 by adding a lot of weight to the stock and installing the biggest break I could.

 

[RegionRat]

Since we are just chewing fat here....

My view would be we are not likely to change his mind on very much, and that's okay.
If he is happy with how his world works, then I am happy for him.
He is free to change with the times, or stay the way he is. At least for now, this is still America.

As for the rest, just be realistic about "enough gun". Elk are amazing critters and deserve a quick end.
Not to mention, it is very upsetting to many inexperienced folks if they wound one and we can't recover it. Most of those folks spend the rest of their hunt not sleeping well and wishing they had not taken a bad shot.

I have had to sit with many rookies, and I would rather sit with a well behaved teenager with a 6.5 CM or 7-08 that is humble and knows haw far (and fast) they can shoot, than a grown man who is toting some cannon and can't hit anything with it. The odds we will kill their elk/deer without drama are vastly in favor of the one who knows how to get the shot off quickly and hit their target correctly within their "effective" range.

Those sayings from real estate folks seem to apply to killing game.... location, location, location.....

Hit in the right place, with enough energy/penetration to destroy the fur, fat, bones, and tissue along the path, and the animal will go down. Hit with enough energy in the nerve plexus above the heart or spine, and it is the off switch. On the other hand, hit with a low energy bullet in just one lung and they can go a hell of a distance while jumping fences and we are off to the rodeo. If the fences are your own that is one thing, but when those fences mean phone calls and waiting for permission, it changes the day.

If we call that a poorly placed shot for a moment, I am never going to say that if the shot was from a 7-08 it is no different than from a 338 LM, but with that said I have had to recover elk with more than four hits from big magnums far more often than examples of lighter calibers.

If you can shoot high energy guns well, and do it quickly, and you are a rookie with very little shooting or hunting experience, then you are a unicorn.

The vast majority of folks who have not taken more than five or ten thousand total rifle shots in their whole life do not shoot magnums quickly from body supported positions in the field and hit their mark. Occasionally we see folks who are a prodigy with a gun, but on average most folks can't kill well past 300 - 350 yards under pressure and chaotic hunting conditions.

The challenge is to get folks to practice enough to pull off a kill shot while under time pressure, with their nerves shaking, and their heart pounding, and without a concrete shooting bench under them. They are obligated to make sure that if there are many elk together, they don't shoot more than one in the chaos. The one they pick, will likely move if not shot in the nerve plexus, can they pick it out of the brush and distinguish it from the others? Real hunting is not like static target shooting at known distance.

Too much of all this fuss and debate about caliber is due to folks who think they will shoot game at the same level their guns shoot off a concrete bench with a good rest, regardless of the recoil.

So to answer your question as someone who has witnessed hundreds of elk kills, yes a 7-08 in the right hands is going to kill an elk, just like a 7 Mag in the wrong hands may or may not.

Much more of the difference in the outcome is based on what is in the heart and between the ears of the hunter, than what is stamped on the barrel or ammo. YMMV

 

[JEFFPPC]

My grandkids who live in Idaho have a 100% record on mutiple elk. All shot with .243s and 100gr Fusion. Practice, knowledge, and discipline results in success. Many adult hunters lack or blow off one or more of these ingredients. Last two paragraphs of the above post are gold.

 

[Rick in Oregon]

Please don't tell that fellow that my light weight 7-08AI kills elk DRT when I go light and don't feel like toting my 9 lb. .338-06AI. Last time I checked, dead is dead.

 

[hoz53]

Since we are just chewing fat here....

My view would be we are not likely to change his mind on very much, and that's okay.
If he is happy with how his world works, then I am happy for him.
He is free to change with the times, or stay the way he is. At least for now, this is still America.

As for the rest, just be realistic about "enough gun". Elk are amazing critters and deserve a quick end.
Not to mention, it is very upsetting to many inexperienced folks if they wound one and we can't recover it. Most of those folks spend the rest of their hunt not sleeping well and wishing they had not taken a bad shot.

I have had to sit with many rookies, and I would rather sit with a well behaved teenager with a 6.5 CM or 7-08 that is humble and knows haw far (and fast) they can shoot, than a grown man who is toting some cannon and can't hit anything with it. The odds we will kill their elk/deer without drama are vastly in favor of the one who knows how to get the shot off quickly and hit their target correctly within their "effective" range.

Those sayings from real estate folks seem to apply to killing game.... location, location, location.....

Hit in the right place, with enough energy/penetration to destroy the fur, fat, bones, and tissue along the path, and the animal will go down. Hit with enough energy in the nerve plexus above the heart or spine, and it is the off switch. On the other hand, hit with a low energy bullet in just one lung and they can go a hell of a distance while jumping fences and we are off to the rodeo. If the fences are your own that is one thing, but when those fences mean phone calls and waiting for permission, it changes the day.

If we call that a poorly placed shot for a moment, I am never going to say that if the shot was from a 7-08 it is no different than from a 338 LM, but with that said I have had to recover elk with more than four hits from big magnums far more often than examples of lighter calibers.

If you can shoot high energy guns well, and do it quickly, and you are a rookie with very little shooting or hunting experience, then you are a unicorn.

The vast majority of folks who have not taken more than five or ten thousand total rifle shots in their whole life do not shoot magnums quickly from body supported positions in the field and hit their mark. Occasionally we see folks who are a prodigy with a gun, but on average most folks can't kill well past 300 - 350 yards under pressure and chaotic hunting conditions.

The challenge is to get folks to practice enough to pull off a kill shot while under time pressure, with their nerves shaking, and their heart pounding, and without a concrete shooting bench under them. They are obligated to make sure that if there are many elk together, they don't shoot more than one in the chaos. The one they pick, will likely move if not shot in the nerve plexus, can they pick it out of the brush and distinguish it from the others? Real hunting is not like static target shooting at known distance.

Too much of all this fuss and debate about caliber is due to folks who think they will shoot game at the same level their guns shoot off a concrete bench with a good rest, regardless of the recoil.

So to answer your question as someone who has witnessed hundreds of elk kills, yes a 7-08 in the right hands is going to kill an elk, just like a 7 Mag in the wrong hands may or may not.

Much more of the difference in the outcome is based on what is in the heart and between the ears of the hunter, than what is stamped on the barrel or ammo. YMMV

that is a heck of a good writeup on the way it works out there. Even though I dont hunt much I appreciate it. Thanks

 

[RegionRat]

that is a heck of a good writeup on the way it works out there. Even though I dont hunt much I appreciate it. Thanks

I don't try to convince a non-hunter to hunt, I know it isn't for everybody and it is getting harder to do every year. However, if you don't hunt because you are putting it off, I will hope you jump in.

If I were to give you any advice, it would be to get in shape, practice your shooting, and go give it a try before you are too old to hump the hills (or they take it away from us). Life can be short, so don't put it off.
Carpe Diem!

 

[Clancy]

I have never had a 7mm-08 that shot very well, but I’ve taken many elk, deer and aoudad with one and wouldn’t think twice about doing it again. It wouldn’t bother me to shoot one with a 243 either, with a good bonded bullet at a reasonable distance.

 

[K22]

I've never hunted Elk, but my best friend took a 5x4 Elk in November 2022 with a 60-year-old Winchester Model 88 in 308. I am a shooter, he is not. I helped him prepared for this hunt of a lifetime. I acquired some 165 grain Nosler Accubond factory ammo and we sighted in for a zero at 200 yards. He took his Elk at 178 yards, one shot kill.

My ex-boss was born and raised in Wyoming. He, his family and friends hunted Elk throughout most of the West. They all used, successfully, either a 30-06 or 270 Win. with factory ammo. No magnums!

The 7mm-08 is a fine cartridge for deer. With tuned reloads it isn't that far away ballistically from a 270-factory loading. So, I would believe, with premium bullets if the distances were reasonable and the shot placement optimum, it would drop an Elk. However, if I was preparing for a hunt of a lifetime and spending 10 grand, I would want a 30-06 with 180 grain premium bullets to give me as much edge as possible but that is just me.

 

[quietburp]

I used to be about impact energy and being at least 1500 ft-lbs. But a high energy bullet can pencil through if it is not functioning properly. So, I changed my criteria to impact velocity.

So, using velocity, some factory 308 loads that I have used are such as Federal Fusion 165 gr. And I have been using 2,000 fps as my limit. Which means it is good to about 300 yards. Which has also been the limit of range I can find on the public hunting land I use in northeast Texas.

However, in the western part of the state there are state drawn hunts for mule deer. Specifically, the only state draw for a mule hunt is the Caprock Canyon SP (state park.) It is usually just hiking and rugged camping. But they close it down for about two weeks for mule deer rifle hunt. And the hunt description (compartment style) says that you should be able to shoot at least 200 yards. Not a lot of trees and the mule deer will not let you catch them by putting salt on their tale.

So, I drank the koolaid on 7 PRC and have one. Even though it starts to petal at 1600fps and is fully petalled at 1800 fps, per their box, I still use 2000 fps. And even with recent evidence that the Hornady Precision Hunter 175 gr (shot a .64 in 3 shot group in my rifle) is more like 2800 fps rather than the box listed 3,000 fps, that is still good to 650 yards. Which is farther than I am going to shoot.

I am comfortable at 300 yards and still competent at 400 yards. The problem with longer distance is not my shooting skill, it's time of flight and impact velocity. Even if I could get a mule deer or elk at 700 yards, it could move and I would now not have the few inches of error I could have afforded at a closer distance with the animal moving.

Shooting a closer distance is not about me being a crappy shooter, it is about realizing that animals can move at the most inopportune (for us) moment.

Some might think that 7 PC is overkill for whitetail, which is what I usually hunt. Well, I am just as comfortable at 50 yards. I might even switch to the CX Outfitter monolithic copper.

 

[hoz53]

I don't try to convince a non-hunter to hunt, I know it isn't for everybody and it is getting harder to do every year. However, if you don't hunt because you are putting it off, I will hope you jump in.

If I were to give you any advice, it would be to get in shape, practice your shooting, and go give it a try before you are too old to hump the hills (or they take it away from us). Life can be short, so don't put it off.
Carpe Diem!

thanks

 

[ebb]

Region Rat had some very good info for those that are willing to listen. But I think some of it could be worked around. You need to be in shape, for sure if you are going to hunt a real mans hunt, like John Waune would do it. Biggest elk, stalked till i was at the verge of death, shoot of a lifetime something that will be an article in a hunting magazine. And i would love to say I did that, but I did not. I hunted on a mesa that was for Colorado relatively flat, you could drive a truck to all the elk killed that week or close to it. I was in shape to sheet a roof in the Florida sun but not to climb a mountain. I had altitude sickness pretty bad once and lite another time. Honesty with the outfitter, and yourself is important. If you tell a guide whats up some can accommodate you. This may mean you will not have a chance at a near record bull. I was OK with that. I shoot mine with a 338 win mag and was happy with my choice. The old guy that was the outfitter kills 2 or 3 every year with a 30/30. The first day I blood trailed a wounded elk for over a mile, but it was a bad shot. I think most people can hunt with managed expectations.

 

[Lee Whitsel]

Since we are just chewing fat here....

My view would be we are not likely to change his mind on very much, and that's okay.
If he is happy with how his world works, then I am happy for him.
He is free to change with the times, or stay the way he is. At least for now, this is still America.

As for the rest, just be realistic about "enough gun". Elk are amazing critters and deserve a quick end.
Not to mention, it is very upsetting to many inexperienced folks if they wound one and we can't recover it. Most of those folks spend the rest of their hunt not sleeping well and wishing they had not taken a bad shot.

I have had to sit with many rookies, and I would rather sit with a well behaved teenager with a 6.5 CM or 7-08 that is humble and knows haw far (and fast) they can shoot, than a grown man who is toting some cannon and can't hit anything with it. The odds we will kill their elk/deer without drama are vastly in favor of the one who knows how to get the shot off quickly and hit their target correctly within their "effective" range.

Those sayings from real estate folks seem to apply to killing game.... location, location, location.....

Hit in the right place, with enough energy/penetration to destroy the fur, fat, bones, and tissue along the path, and the animal will go down. Hit with enough energy in the nerve plexus above the heart or spine, and it is the off switch. On the other hand, hit with a low energy bullet in just one lung and they can go a hell of a distance while jumping fences and we are off to the rodeo. If the fences are your own that is one thing, but when those fences mean phone calls and waiting for permission, it changes the day.

If we call that a poorly placed shot for a moment, I am never going to say that if the shot was from a 7-08 it is no different than from a 338 LM, but with that said I have had to recover elk with more than four hits from big magnums far more often than examples of lighter calibers.

If you can shoot high energy guns well, and do it quickly, and you are a rookie with very little shooting or hunting experience, then you are a unicorn.

The vast majority of folks who have not taken more than five or ten thousand total rifle shots in their whole life do not shoot magnums quickly from body supported positions in the field and hit their mark. Occasionally we see folks who are a prodigy with a gun, but on average most folks can't kill well past 300 - 350 yards under pressure and chaotic hunting conditions.

The challenge is to get folks to practice enough to pull off a kill shot while under time pressure, with their nerves shaking, and their heart pounding, and without a concrete shooting bench under them. They are obligated to make sure that if there are many elk together, they don't shoot more than one in the chaos. The one they pick, will likely move if not shot in the nerve plexus, can they pick it out of the brush and distinguish it from the others? Real hunting is not like static target shooting at known distance.

Too much of all this fuss and debate about caliber is due to folks who think they will shoot game at the same level their guns shoot off a concrete bench with a good rest, regardless of the recoil.

So to answer your question as someone who has witnessed hundreds of elk kills, yes a 7-08 in the right hands is going to kill an elk, just like a 7 Mag in the wrong hands may or may not.

Much more of the difference in the outcome is based on what is in the heart and between the ears of the hunter, than what is stamped on the barrel or ammo. YMMV

The biggest elk I ever saw taken here in Montana was a huge 7/7 bull. I heard the couple of shots and walked over. Ended helping the guy get it out. He had a one shot 308 threw it just behind the shoulder and he put one more in it as it went down to make sure cause it was a once in a life time bull.... The extra shot was not needed it was a done deal......

 

[Coyotefurharvester]

I think your choice of the 7/08 is good, especially if you shoot it often(one of the advantages of the cartridge). Shoot mostly at 300 yards, than 200 and under hunting shots will be easy. And when you practice at 400 the shot doesn't seem so difficult. And you will know YOUR limitations.

 

[CharlieNC]

It's about a bullet which is properly designed for the application. The bullet doesn't care if it was fired from an 08 or a mag, the impact velocity to achieve design performance is the criteria, which can also be too fast. Bullet selection and terminal ballistics.

 

[Nealm66]

Definitely think bullet design is just as, if not more, important than cartridge. Recently seen some pictures from a friend’s 185 yard shot with 195 bergers from a 28 nosler that expanded awfully quick as soon as it touched hide. Got another buddy I loaded up some 116 hammer bullets for his 270 wsm that he , his son and grandson have been using for 3 years now to kill mule deer and says he’s never seen them die so quickly

 

[Doug Casner]

There was alot of elk killed with old hawken muzzleloaders , 44-40s, all kinds of black powder cartridges. They didnt shoot at them a 1000 yds. either. The only elk I ever shot was with a .308 close. Had a buddy kill one with a 243 one time. You dont need a 338 lapua mag. Doug

 

[JSH]

Bullet design and shot placement along with distance.
Buddies grandpa got an elk every year. He turned 60 and his kids got him a 270 for his bday. He used it one year a d went back to his old rifle, 30-30 Marlin. He said the 270 is the only rifle he ever has had to shoot an elk more than twice.

 

[Capt. Oblivious]

Please don't tell that fellow that my light weight 7-08AI kills elk DRT when I go light and don't feel like toting my 9 lb. .338-06AI. Last time I checked, dead is dead.

Its because its light weigh and it recoils

 

[wyshadow]

Thank you for everyone chiming in but I think everyone missed my question. I should've put a '?' at the end of the sentence and maybe this is why everyone missed it. I was just wondering if hunters back in the day, before chronographs and knowing ballistics, choose their hunting rifle for a particular prey by how heavy the recoil was?

So for instance:
very light recoil (the rifle has almost no movement) = rabbits, squirrels, coyotes
some recoil (rifle has a noticeable kick but not bad) = coyotes, deer, hogs, small bear
recoil is enough to make you sore the next day after several shots = elk, moose, grizzly
recoil is enough to dislocate your shoulder if not held firmly = dangerous game,

I was just surprised hunters today still think this way even though everyone has information on almost everything in the palm of your hands. Was joking about the recoil dislocating your shoulder

 

[RegionRat]

If you mean those of us that shot in the 60s - 70s... That means we shot what our family/friends could afford and/or find locally, or what the schools, Scouts, or clubs ran.

It took passion, resources, and a lot more time to order the variety of possible calibers you saw in manuals or magazines. So, it had little to do with recoil and more to do with practicality back then.

Try to remember, if you didn't find it locally, that meant you would typically have to go buy a money order and mail it, then wait for the stuff to come to you. It took a lot longer in those days for orders to get placed, accepted, shipped, and travel. Not to mention the jump in expense.

Part of the nation's post WW2 history included times when the GDP was above average and folks lived well, but there was also a time called the Carter Years that were rough and folks were struggling for things like fuel and food. There were some things that were cheap like WW2 surplus ammo, so we used it. Had nothing to do with worrying about recoil or a lack of knowing about it.

The GOV was already coming off of 308 WIN and already using 5.56, but those were not prolific or cheap yet.

Rimfire smallbore shooting or airgun was more common, so by the time we were given a chance at centerfire we didn't complain about recoil. Most of us knew the difference between a 410 and a 12 ga, so we learned to shoot 30-06 without complaint. Some of the smaller gals or recoil shy would shoot 30-30.

Where I grew up, some farmers that shot a lot might run a 22-250 or 243, but most just ran 30-30 or 30-06 because it was affordable and easy to get.

It had more to do with practicality not recoil. Upgrading meant you were wealthy or passionate enough to go to the trouble to fetch other calibers than what was locally available.

Just my little world view from NW Indiana in the 60s - 70s. By the 80s, changes came faster. YMMV