Advice for Bryan Litz on barrel tuners.

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Here's an unfired test target.

 

[Curious]

I'm not sure what to tell you if you believe a tuner should fix issues with factory ammo. In regard to you other post, stating you have one of my tuners...If you got it from me, you got in depth instruction with a phone call, as that's the only way I do tuner orders...and to avoid getting into generalized use instructions that raise feathers with someone who owns a different tuner, that doesn't work exactly the same in regard to adjustment values. If you wanna call me Monday, I'll walk you through it just like I do with every customer. But you're just asking me to do what I already said no to, here. There has been too much confusion, for too long about how to go about it. Posting what some might view as universal tuner instructions online just confuses things worse. I already addressed that. A phone call will get you all the instruction I can offer.

Now, since you said you have tuners and have approached adjusting them methodically, why don't you explain your process that worked for you and with what tuner. That should be an endorsement for their product.

I do think tuners can tune a rifle to shoot factory ammo to the ammo's potential but it won't make a sow's ear into a silk purse, and every lot can be different. Yes, I've tested it. Out of the initial 20 types and lots, two were exceptional AFTER tuning. Some were decent and others were horrible, no matter how much tuning was done, but it did change group shape and size. A tuner won't fix junk ammo nor guns. As a BR shooter, I can't imagine why I just had to explain that, though. GIGO, comes to mind. Garbage in, garbage out. But there were some lots that shot well enough that I'd take to a match and I think I can stay off the bottom of the page with. That alone is a huge statement for factory ammo in a real live br match!

FWIW, my tuners all DO come with a generalized instruction sheet. If you want the nitty gritty, I do it by phone. Do you have a specific question that might help with your use of my tuner or not? I'm happy to help if I can.

Bottom line...I'm freely offering everything you ask for but not to start a public pissing match over it.

I never said tuners should fix factory ammo, as we agree it might in some cases and it wont in others but do you know why it works with some and not others?

Ive seen match grade factory ammo that would shoot as you say, well enough to compete with and Ive also seen the same batch of match grade ammo that wouldnt tune in a different barrel, again why?

I have an opinion, Im just trying to see if others do or if anyone wants to delve into the subject?

Again Im not suggesting a tuner should ever fix junk ammo or junk guns, Ive seen though plenty of average quality factory ammo improved by a tuner though even if it didnt bring it up to match grade, a tuner can improve the potential of some ammo but not others that might share equal quality components - again why?

I bought one of your tuners via an agent in the UK called March Scopes and had it shipped to Europe so we never had any telephone communication, nor did it come with instructions but thats not really a problem, I know how to tune guns using the tuner. I guess Im just interested in your method of tuning and cant really see why you wouldnt describe it over a public forum, as you say you are only talking about your own product so if anyone you will be the expert on it, Im not looking for a pissing match with anyone, just open discussion.

Something I honestly have found though having tried asking a number of different tuner makers how to use their product properly that Im generally met with silence. Its easy to manufacture and market a tuner in todays world, its just a weight on a thread but for Joe Average its a lot harder to get some useful advice on how to use it, that seems to have also been Bryan Litz's problem hence the original discussion.

 

[Curious]

I'll post this, as I have before. It represents very well how I establish a setting as well as why..with my tuner. This is a short range cf rifle and the test was not shot by me. It's quite typical except most rifles show a little more muzzle deflection and clarity. This is generally relative to bbl stiffness. He did the test very much like I asked and it tells me exactly what I look for from it.
See that sine wave and group SHAPES? That's what I look for, almost perfectly.

Thanks for that. I assume though that the load had already been developed fully and this was just showing how the tuner can fine tune things?

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

I never said tuners should fix factory ammo, as we agree it might in some cases and it wont in others but do you know why it works with some and not others?

Ive seen match grade factory ammo that would shoot as you say, well enough to compete with and Ive also seen the same batch of match grade ammo that wouldnt tune in a different barrel, again why?

I have an opinion, Im just trying to see if others do or if anyone wants to delve into the subject?

Again Im not suggesting a tuner should ever fix junk ammo or junk guns, Ive seen though plenty of average quality factory ammo improved by a tuner though even if it didnt bring it up to match grade, a tuner can improve the potential of some ammo but not others that might share equal quality components - again why?

I bought one of your tuners via an agent in the UK called March Scopes and had it shipped to Europe so we never had any telephone communication, nor did it come with instructions but thats not really a problem, I know how to tune guns using the tuner. I guess Im just interested in your method of tuning and cant really see why you wouldnt describe it over a public forum, as you say you are only talking about your own product so if anyone you will be the expert on it, Im not looking for a pissing match with anyone, just open discussion.

Something I honestly have found though having tried asking a number of different tuner makers how to use their product properly that Im generally met with silence. Its easy to manufacture and market a tuner in todays world, its just a weight on a thread but for Joe Average its a lot harder to get some useful advice on how to use it, that seems to have also been Bryan Litz's problem hence the original discussion.

No, it's not hard from me...it's a phone call. Nuff said

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Thanks for that. I assume though that the load had already been developed fully and this was just showing how the tuner can fine tune things?

I'd assume so too. Again, a tuner can't make silk purses from a sows ear. I'm not sure you're hearing me yet. No offense but a tuner won't fix a crap gun or ammo, no matter what you call it..but wouldn't that be nice? Lol!

 

[Curious]

I'd assume so too. Again, a tuner can't make silk purses from a sows ear. I'm not sure you're hearing me yet. No offense but a tuner won't fix a crap gun or ammo, no matter what you call it..but wouldn't that be nice? Lol!

Do you have any other tuner experience outside the short stiff barrels used in BR?

 

[TrxR]

The fclass guys seem to have embraced the tuners just as much as the benchrest guys.

 

[7887mm08]

You can keep asking and somebody MIGHT tell you what you want to hear.
Seems like a lot are telling you what you DON'T want to hear.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

Do you have any other tuner experience outside the short stiff barrels used in BR?

Yes, with just about everything imaginable. Carbon fiber excluded. I have feedback from others but I have not tested that. Otherwise, yes, everything from 16" of 1.450 in front of a cf bbl blocked gun to rf and air rifles. I forgot mz...No experience tuning a muzzleloader either. I'm slipping!

 

[BoydAllen]

What I get is that most of the guys who post negative comments about tuners have no experience with one.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

What I get is that most of the guys who post negative comments about tuners have no experience with one.

Me too, Boyd...or limited, at best....which might be worse than none.

 

[1bamashooter]

What I get is that most of the guys who post negative comments about tuners have no experience with one.

Some expect it to turn a 3/4in rifle into an .3 or .2 or like a guy I know that thought it would turn his thin barrel factory basket case shooting facory Remington ammo into a benchrest rifle....

 

[Bill Norris]

What I get is that most of the guys who post negative comments about tuners have no experience with one.

Absolutely Boyd. It's why I said if you have no experience then purchase one and test it.

 

[Dusty Stevens]

That sine wave target is absolutely beautiful. It would be hard to find a better example

 

[Curious]

Me too, Boyd...or limited, at best....which might be worse than none.

And therein lies the problem.

Tuners are getting a negative reputation in some quarters because of ignorance on the users part.

As is clearly evident here though is that those who claim to know, those who might know and those who make them seem to keep this info to themselves or reserve the right to do it by private telephone conversations. Ive tried to correspond with quite a few different tuner makers and to be honest its been a very disappointing experience, generally all I can get is two or three shots/move/two or three shots/move. That advice doesn't work so we are where we are. Then you have the opinion a tuner won't fix a bad load but that very much depends on what someone considers fixed. Tuners can be a great thing for Joe Average in his pursuit o something better than they have.

There is clearly far more to barrel tuners than as micro adjusters of already proven good loads in BR. I was hoping we might explore that but it seems so far there isn't anyone who wants to talk about it.

 

[gunsandgunsmithing]

And therein lies the problem.

Tuners are getting a negative reputation in some quarters because of ignorance on the users part.

As is clearly evident here though is that those who claim to know, those who might know and those who make them seem to keep this info to themselves or reserve the right to do it by private telephone conversations. Ive tried to correspond with quite a few different tuner makers and to be honest its been a very disappointing experience, generally all I can get is two or three shots/move/two or three shots/move. That advice doesn't work so we are where we are. Then you have the opinion a tuner won't fix a bad load but that very much depends on what someone considers fixed. Tuners can be a great thing for Joe Average in his pursuit o something better than they have.

There is clearly far more to barrel tuners than as micro adjusters of already proven good loads in BR. I was hoping we might explore that but it seems so far there isn't anyone who wants to talk about it.

For goodness sake, I posted a picture of what to do and groups that show what to look for. That target explains a lot.

There are foreign entities copying and selling br products, stealing the work of others. It's one thing to make something but understanding how to use it is a different animal.

Wasn't the title of this thread, Advice For Brian Litz?

 

[BoydAllen]

And therein lies the problem.

Tuners are getting a negative reputation in some quarters because of ignorance on the users part.

As is clearly evident here though is that those who claim to know, those who might know and those who make them seem to keep this info to themselves or reserve the right to do it by private telephone conversations. Ive tried to correspond with quite a few different tuner makers and to be honest its been a very disappointing experience, generally all I can get is two or three shots/move/two or three shots/move. That advice doesn't work so we are where we are. Then you have the opinion a tuner won't fix a bad load but that very much depends on what someone considers fixed. Tuners can be a great thing for Joe Average in his pursuit o something better than they have.

There is clearly far more to barrel tuners than as micro adjusters of already proven good loads in BR. I was hoping we might explore that but it seems so far there isn't anyone who wants to talk about it.

What sort of rifle did you do your tuner test with and what tuner did you use? How exactly did you test? Were you loading at the range, and shooting over flags?

 

[Curious]

What sort of rifle did you do your tuner test with and what tuner did you use? How exactly did you test? Were you loading at the range, and shooting over flags?

How I test isnt of concern to me or the point of the topic, Im happy where Im at with tuners and happy to continue exploring with guns of all kinds and ammo of varying quality from the best to the worst.

Ive tested on guns from thin barrel sporters to HV 6PPC, 1000yd BR guns to PRS type rifles.

I was just thinking an open discussion where we all shared thoughts, methods and experiences might help a lot of people and maybe debunk this dismissal of tuners by Brian Litz as an uneducated shambles.

I just didnt realise how few people (zero in fact) want to engage in the discussion when it comes to details.

I will leave it at that, thanks everyone for your contributions.

 

[BoydAllen]

How I test isnt of concern to me or the point of the topic, Im happy where Im at with tuners and happy to continue exploring with guns of all kinds and ammo of varying quality from the best to the worst.

Ive tested on guns from thin barrel sporters to HV 6PPC, 1000yd BR guns to PRS type rifles.

I was just thinking an open discussion where we all shared thoughts, methods and experiences might help a lot of people and maybe debunk this dismissal of tuners by Brian Litz as an uneducated shambles.

I just didnt realise how few people (zero in fact) want to engage in the discussion when it comes to details.

I will leave it at that, thanks everyone for your contributions.

This is funny. You complain about lack of sharing details, but when I asked you for details you gave none.

 

[linekin]

I'll post this, as I have before. It represents very well how I establish a setting as well as why..with my tuner. This is a short range cf rifle and the test was not shot by me. It's quite typical except most rifles show a little more muzzle deflection and clarity. This is generally relative to bbl stiffness. He did the test very much like I asked and it tells me exactly what I look for from it.
See that sine wave and group SHAPES? That's what I look for, almost perfectly.

I don't have any experience with cf tuning but having retuned my rimfire rifle using MiKe's sine wave deal, helped immensely with the consistency of my rifle. I won't tune another rifle, rf or cf, any other way again.
As a for instance the widely used way in rf is the Hopewell method. Most use a Harrell's tuner which has 0-500 graduations in approx. .001 increments per click. The Hopewell method is a long winded task which you'll find a gazillion small groups on both swings thru the sine wave, top & bottom.
What I found is I'd got snookered into the tiny group on the bottom of the wave using the Hopewell method. Once I took a look at where I was using Mike's sine wave test it was clear to see I was on the bottom of the wave. DON'T TRUST THE GROUPS ON THE BOTTOM OF THE WAVE!!!!
Thanks Mike!