Actual testing for carbon in the necks vs clean necks for low ES

[savagedasher]

Getting low Es is the same as tune a motor in racing
First you must have the same displacement in cylinder
Then you must have a propellant or fuel that burn at the same rate with different temperatures
Last You must have a ignition source That’s the same
Then you must have a means of checking the results
That’s my story and I’m stick with it
And yes I get single digits every time

 

[Joe Salt]

Denobravo You said you changed one thing and your ES. went down. Well I'll give you a big pat on the back! That is how you find thing out ONE THING AT A TIME.
Not two or three thing. You got it now buddy.

Joe Salt

 

[denobravo]

Denobravo You said you changed one thing and your ES. went down. Well I'll give you a big pat on the back! That is how you find thing out ONE THING AT A TIME.
Not two or three thing. You got it now buddy.

Joe Salt

thanks Joe

 

[Lefty Trigger]

Internet forums are great source of info,... both right and wrong. You have to let the overflow roll off your back or you just get pissed off and don't come back. I have been on forums before that have gotten me so mad that I never returned, some people just like the drama and will post on every thread weather or not they have valuable input. I have actually pulled threads down from this site because they got so far out of hand and derailed from the original topic.

 

[Ccrider]

It never ceases to amaze me at how sensitive some of you “men” are. It’s an Internet forum directed at making us all better shooters. And, in my opinion, a very good and helpful one. Not a church meeting where we all should be singing kumbahyah in the same note holding hands. My dad always says, if you are hungry and have an apple with a rotten spot on it, you cut the bad spot off and eat the rest. Just like most things in life, take the good, leave the bad. And stop being a sissy. (Dad never said that. That’s all me.)

 

[Richard Coody]

Thanx Bob...I was beginning to wonder lol

what i have to say is "whatever works for you".

look shooters get great results with all kinds of different techniques. the best shooters in the country can't even agree as to what is the best way to clean a barrel.

A big part of the fun for me is reading this forum and trying different ideas to see if they work for me.

i don't debate the the different techniques. i know what works for me.

it seems you know what works for you. Not sure if you are looking for someone to disagree with or looking for confirmation of your findings. You already have your answer.

now i will give you my 2 cents worth. for my bench guns i wipe off the outside of my cases with a rag dampened in ballistol. lightly brush out the necks. size with a harrell die. then use a k &m mandrel kit to fine tune neck tension. charge cases with adams autotrickler system. seat bullets with a 21st century hydro press. cull those keeping the ones in a 10# range that i have found to shoot best.

this will get me i the 1's and low 2's. not competitive but it makes me smile.

see you are very happy with what you are doing

whatever works for.you.

 

[Ccrider]

Agging in the1s and low 2s is not competitive? Wow. I have a lot of work to do.


Thanks

 

[MislMan]

Good to know
I found this forum in Accurate shooter and have read quite a few articles, as well as many forums. It seems as though everyone does testing as I have. My results were challenged so I came here looking for corroboration.
Isnt that what the forums are for??
If I read your comments correctly, you are telling me I should not look here but I should report here. One person did respond with data. It was exactly what I am looking for. If you speak for the whole than I was wrong to come here. I am sorry.

DB ... I believe we have a miscommunication between you and I. I do feel this is the best place to look for discussion and offer your thoughts. I was attempting to convey that most do not tabulate data in a structured manner that can be presented as such. One provided their structured data and many provided their results as what works for them. They tried different options and went forward with the better option for their use. Don’t dismiss their results off-hand since it isn’t tabulated lab data. I’m just saying don’t be dismayed that structured/tabulated data isn’t around as much as you might hope for. After 30+ years designing missile systems and components I’m well versed in tabulated data and would love to see the data as much as you. Alas, that formatted testing/data is in short supply so I go with “results” as found through others years/decades of development and experience.

 

[Richard Coody]

Me too
I want whatever Richard is having for breakfast

dude with the right rifle/cartridge combination its not hard at all.

with the best reloads made without the right rifle its impossible.

buy you one of these and you will see.

https://theshooterscorner.com/benchrest-rifles/

 

[Richard Coody]

Bobs
Got some nice stuff there, I was tempted once but a PPC isn't gonna do me much good at a 600 or a 1000 yards.

get alex wheeler to build you a bra.

or get one of bobs rifles with a br bolt and get you a bra barrel.

i really like the 6br and an Ackley improved one appeals to me.

 

[Richard Coody]

View attachment 1083296 Nah
I can't afford that high end stuff.
My little straight six will have to do.

here is my 6br i put together. built a couple of them on savage target actions.

 

[chop house]

buy you one of these and you will see.

https://theshooterscorner.com/benchrest-rifles/

Where is the sort by price, low to high, button??? hahaha

 

[JimSC]

I like build my own using Savage actions also, when my horizontals get consistently smaller than the vertical measurements on my groups I might go high dollar. Until then I will be spinning my own barrels on and using a barrel nut and right now my groups resemble polka dot ribbons

 

[denobravo]

@denobravo

I think what you are truly looking for, only you can provide. I personally don't think there is a single meaningful answer to your question any of us can give you that will leave you 100% satisfied.

If you truly want to know take 25 pcs of brass run them through a stainless steel tumbler, anneal the necks, and create your load. Shoot it over the chronograph (hopefully one not effected by light) then re-anneal and shoot again with dirty necks. Compare the results. Boom, question answered.

But, I feel you aren't seeing the forest through the trees. As other shooters have said, ES is only valuable because it leads to more predictability, which leads to greater accuracy potential--which is the end goal for most if not all of us here. And personally, I focus on low standard deviations, ES is pretty meaningless to me, but that's a whole 'nother discussion for another time.

Perfectly clean necks (ss tumbled) can have a major issue related to the bullet upon seating. The neck is so clean the bullet rubs against inside of the brass like a cylinder in a car without oil. What your left with is a bullet whose jacket has been deformed from its original form, it's torn or slightly shredded.

Not a big deal at most normal ranges, but at extreme ranges where ES/SD actually matters, it could have an effect. It would be like pointing the tips...but in reverse...and opposite

And yes, you could use dry lube. But then why go to all the trouble to get clean necks just to make them dirty again. My advice to you would be either test for yourself so you know for sure or just get a few bronze brushes one caliber larger than the caliber you are shooting and run it down the neck and back up one time in between firing. This will knock off the large major gunk but leave enough for the bullet to seat smoothly. It's quick, easy, and effective.

My other piece of advice would be to shoot more often. The more you shoot the more you can see the forest.

hmmmm. I guess you didnt read the post, but thanks for your thoughts
might wanna reconsider giving advise

 

[Richard Coody]

Where is the sort by price, low to high, button??? hahaha

you can get a nice panda or.hall or nesika J or borden for $1800. good deal

 

[Fhashby]

I did a search and found 7 pages of discussions on neck carbon. WOW
I really only want actual test data
Has anyone done this ??
Since Ive been cleaning the inside of my brass I now get single digit es in 5 shot groups
I had always annealed every loading sequence, sized, trimmed etc but never got the low number
Ive tested several primers and stay with 2 main powders R23 and H1000...which is irrelevant to the test I am looking for.
JUST CARBON testing
I would appreciate anyones personal testing. I am looking for empirical data
Thank you

I normally deprime, sonic clean, and tumble. Is there anything else I need to do to clean the necks?

 

[BenPerfected]

I normally deprime, sonic clean, and tumble. Is there anything else I need to do to clean the necks?

Don’t know much about sonic cleaning, but tumbling with pins for a 3-4 hours should leave your brass spotless....in and out.

 

[Falfan2017]

I’ve got a savage criterion 6 br that I’m not really using anymore. I’ve never cleaned the necks of the brass. I could do an experiment where I wet tumble some.

To be scientific what would we want to see? A certain number of 5 shot groups? What distance? Should I re chamfer the necks? I’ve heard cleaning knocks the edge off.

Everything else would be the same. Same load no annealing.

 

[denobravo]

I normally deprime, sonic clean, and tumble. Is there anything else I need to do to clean the necks?

if you get clean necks when you run them through the sonic, just anneal. Returning the brass to a softer state for more consistent tension. Then size and trim etc.
If you see carbon in the neck, run them through till its gone. But anneal ! before you size.

 

[denobravo]

I’ve got a savage criterion 6 br that I’m not really using anymore. I’ve never cleaned the necks of the brass. I could do an experiment where I wet tumble some.

To be scientific what would we want to see? A certain number of 5 shot groups? What distance? Should I re chamfer the necks? I’ve heard cleaning knocks the edge off.

Everything else would be the same. Same load no annealing.

Annealing is very very important part of the test. Brass gets stifff and brittle if you dont. It will change the perimeters of the experiment if you dont. Results will be inconclusive as you change 2 aspects of the test group. It needs to be one aspect at a time.

as for distance it is irrelevant.
you are not measuring groups you are recording speed variations. This test is about ES/SD only.
An accurate chronograph is essential. Without that, the results are not valid.