Actual testing for carbon in the necks vs clean necks for low ES

[Alex Wheeler]

I understand. In that case I doubt anyone will have your answer. Most are looking for the best accuracy with good enough ES. However, I will say most of these LR BR rifles will shoot solid mid to low single digit ES if you take them a little out of tune. I do not think you can ever practically get much better than that.

 

[denobravo]

I understand. In that case I doubt anyone will have your answer. Most are looking for the best accuracy with good enough ES. However, I will say most of these LR BR rifles will shoot solid mid to low single digit ES if you take them a little out of tune. I do not think you can ever practically get much better than that.

Thank you Alex.
You said it in an earlier post
And my finding is the same
MOST people dont read the words and respond to them
They assume I am looking for something and answer the question THEY CREATED in their own head.
Science is exacting and the description should be also
I FAILED to communicate.
We jokingly call reloading "rocket science" , and it is. Each component should be controllable. I am looking for the physical elements part in the propulsion sequence.
I read that John Whidden soft seats his bullet, IOW almost no tension virtually free floating bullet in the chamber as it were lol
I also heard alot of talk about the subject of carbon and thought "My goodness, someone has had to do work on this"
But who
So thanks I havent gotten the answers I am looking for and most, like you,, changed the subject to groups and didnt really have an answer but tried anyway
This is a good bunch of people and a wealth of cumulative information.
We all fail at communicating but I am grateful for those who did try to answer ...ooops a few got it, but I am grateful for all.
I am done and will look elsewhere
THANK YOU ALL
10-7

 

[savagedasher]

If you don’t have single Es
If not Gravity is going to kick your bottom at long range . The smaller single numbers is always a plus

 

[BoydAllen]

I did a search and found 7 pages of discussions on neck carbon. WOW
I really only want actual test data
Has anyone done this ??
Since Ive been cleaning the inside of my brass I now get single digit es in 5 shot groups
I had always annealed every loading sequence, sized, trimmed etc but never got the low number
Ive tested several primers and stay with 2 main powders R23 and H1000...which is irrelevant to the test I am looking for.
JUST CARBON testing
I would appreciate anyones personal testing. I am looking for empirical data
Thank you

Sticking to your subject, IMO you may have oversimplified this without realizing it. Annealing softens brass and therefore reduces the bullet pull that a given neck tension (difference in diameters) will give. Generally I have found that clean, unfouled necks require more bullet seating force than brushed necks that have some powder fouling in them. Some powders burn more consistently with a minimum amount of bullet pull, and therefore would yield more consistent ES. Even though we may not be using a chronograph for testing this sort of thing tends to correlate with having more or less vertical, all else being equal. So... if those particular powders like a bit more bullet pull then your sizing and annealing would produce with fouling in necks, and cleaning your necks of all carbon increases bullet pull, then it makes sense that your ESs would improve...but this would only apply to your set of conditions, and would require testing for any other.

Digressing a bit, I have done some match report articles for the IBS and in the course of doing my research I have interviewed several winners of more than one thousand yard benchrest nationals. Some anneal and some do not, and their choice is based on careful testing.

 

[denobravo]

Sticking to your subject, IMO you may have oversimplified this without realizing it. Annealing softens brass and therefore reduces the bullet pull that a given neck tension (difference in diameters) will give. Generally I have found that clean, unfouled necks require more bullet seating force than brushed necks that have some powder fouling in them. Some powders burn more consistently with a minimum amount of bullet pull, and therefore would yield more consistent ES. Even though we may not be using a chronograph for testing this sort of thing tends to correlate with having more or less vertical, all else being equal. So... if those particular powders like a bit more bullet pull then your sizing and annealing would produce with fouling in necks, and cleaning your necks of all carbon increases bullet pull, then it makes sense that your ESs would improve...but this would only apply to your set of conditions, and would require testing for any other.

Digressing a bit, I have done some match report articles for the IBS and in the course of doing my research I have interviewed several winners of more than one thousand yard benchrest nationals. Some anneal and some do not, and their choice is based on careful testing.

Thanks Boyd
you answered what I needed for now.
It seems I "HAVE TO" understand something before I can gain the confidence to teach it or use it. If there is any doubt in a mechanical formula it leaves me shaken.
Ive heard people say this topic is beaten to death yet no science to back it. Hence the quest for information.
I, as most of us, want a one hole rifle. So that is there also. But at my age I need understanding of the formulas and the mechanics involved.
Thank you for your patience and for your answer.

Thank you for your answer.

 

[denobravo]

If you don’t have single Es
If not Gravity is going to kick your bottom at long range . The smaller single numbers is always a plus

what ??

 

[savagedasher]

It’s call time in the air
Slower bullets will fall more
The closer you can keep the ES the less varence you have lease amount of vertical

 

[BoydAllen]

FYI a subject that all long range shooters should familiarize themselves with is positive compensation, which is something that can have groups exhibit less vertical than calculations would indicate they should have based on velocity spread alone. One smith who is quite prominent in long range benchrest has told me that the low double digits range of ES is fine for 1,000 yard bench, and that surprisingly very low single digits may actually not do as well in careful testing. The problem that some folks seem to have is that they think that there is a one to one correspondence between what they imagine all of the factors are and how they interact to produce a result, when in fact they have missed something.

 

[Joe Salt]

denobravo I've tried everything known to man, but just because it works in one rifle doesn't mean it will work in yours. Mix it up try polishing the insides of the necks, use molly, leave the carbon in then just light brushing. see what works for your rifle. Don't try dry necks you will never get seating depth right.

Joe Sat

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Why figure it out if better accuracy is not the end goal? I guess I assume anyone interested in ES would be interested in it to improve the size of their groups. So in a round about way I thought I was answering the "end goal" question. However if your interested in ES for other reasons than better accuracy Id like to know those other reasons if I may. If you are one of those guys that needs "scientific evidence" and extensive testing behind everything, prepare to be disappointed. Like its been stated, there aren't many rules in reloading. You may prove some science in one combo, then see something very different in the next. There are too many variables involved. If your like me, you like to understand what your doing and why rather than just blindly doing them. So lets figure out what causes ES first? I dont mean variables, thats obvious. Why can I adjust seating depth or powder charge and change the ES of a load? Why can adding .2 of a grain to a load drastically change the ES of that load?

 

[Medic505]

I am only looking for consistent bullet speed at the muzzle

IMHO there are many variables that ultimately affect ES numbers. From ambient temperature to the amount of pressure applied to the butt of the stock. To narrow results down to one cause and effect from different shooters would be a stretch to say the least.

Is there a shooting discipline where 12" groups don't matter but lowest ES wins?

 

[Steve Ladino]

Slightly off topic but I have some 30ish year old handloads (223, mil-surp brass) that the last time I fired had a bunch of split necks. Seemed like ~50% loss rate and I wondered if some type of cold welding effect could be contributing to the high failure rate.

So as an informal experiment I was going to reseat the bullets by say 0.005" and shoot 25 of each and see if there's a difference in accuracy, velocity, and failure rate. A simple exercise like that won't prove anything one way or another but it won't cost anything and I'm going to shoot the ammo up anyway so might as well try to learn something from it.

Intersting ….fwiw I shot some 1943 30-06 ball recently, packed 220 in tin sardine cans.....no splits and no ftf.

 

[denobravo]

IMHO there are many variables that ultimately affect ES numbers. From ambient temperature to the amount of pressure applied to the butt of the stock. To narrow results down to one cause and effect from different shooters would be a stretch to say the least.

Is there a shooting discipline where 12" groups don't matter but lowest ES wins?

only in science...If I was looking for information on group size, it would. But when you or anybody is testing a single component or aspect of a sequence, then that and that alone is the answer. How it applies is the next step is yet to be seen. However you are assuming a contest between the 2 and it was not the issue.
not everybody has the paitence for testing...most just jump ahead to how does it apply to my group. So this probably isnt for you.

 

[denobravo]

Why figure it out if better accuracy is not the end goal? I guess I assume anyone interested in ES would be interested in it to improve the size of their groups. So in a round about way I thought I was answering the "end goal" question. However if your interested in ES for other reasons than better accuracy Id like to know those other reasons if I may. If you are one of those guys that needs "scientific evidence" and extensive testing behind everything, prepare to be disappointed. Like its been stated, there aren't many rules in reloading. You may prove some science in one combo, then see something very different in the next. There are too many variables involved. If your like me, you like to understand what your doing and why rather than just blindly doing them. So lets figure out what causes ES first? I dont mean variables, thats obvious. Why can I adjust seating depth or powder charge and change the ES of a load? Why can adding .2 of a grain to a load drastically change the ES of that load?

the reason....looking at a single aspect of the sequence and how it and it alone affects es.
Go ahead and bypass this post if it frustrates you. The end game is a one hole group .000
But a test is a test and it is something done inspite of or apart from the end game to prove or disprove a theory.
For the record...
my last 4, 5 shot strings produced an ES of 3, 7, 9, 11
I want to know if I change one thing like carbon in the necks if the es will rise or drop.
So I guess I am not like you if research is frustrating or offensive. I am not a good enough shot to get a one hole group, most of min are .2 or larger.
And as for being disappointed, I guess I am. But not in testing. Just in demeaning dialogue.

 

[Alex Wheeler]

Good luck on your testing, I hope you find your answers. However its posters like yourself, that demand free information rudely, that are the reason those with the information will never post it.

 

[denobravo]

denobravo I've tried everything known to man, but just because it works in one rifle doesn't mean it will work in yours. Mix it up try polishing the insides of the necks, use molly, leave the carbon in then just light brushing. see what works for your rifle. Don't try dry necks you will never get seating depth right.

Joe Sat

Thank you Joe.
I am in the middle of trying everything LOL
This of course is just one test and for some reason I thought others might have done this and would share their results.
I have been very disappointed that almost no one has shared their results. Most are kind and some what helpful. A few have read into my post and answered questions I didnt ask.And some have become upset that I dont think like they do. My es with dry necks have been very successful.
But then for me anything under 20 ES is a success. I will continue my testing. I have learned a few things from posting a question or response. They seem far more important at this time than do the results of a test at this point
Good shooting bro!

 

[denobravo]

Good luck on your testing, I hope you find your answers. However its posters like yourself, that demand free information rudely, that are the reason those with the information will never post it.

no one demanded anything and I was not rude to anyone. re read the posts
People are free to respond and not forced. I dont understand your accusation of demanding information. And I doubt those with the answers are protecting them from what you consider rude. You may be uncomfortable with me pointing out you changed the subject, but I was not rude.

 

[Medic505]

Did Retired come out of hiding and I missed it?

 

[denobravo]

FYI a subject that all long range shooters should familiarize themselves with is positive compensation, which is something that can have groups exhibit less vertical than calculations would indicate they should have based on velocity spread alone. One smith who is quite prominent in long range benchrest has told me that the low double digits range of ES is fine for 1,000 yard bench, and that surprisingly very low single digits may actually not do as well in careful testing. The problem that some folks seem to have is that they think that there is a one to one correspondence between what they imagine all of the factors are and how they interact to produce a result, when in fact they have missed something.

thanks Boyd, that is a good point
I am quest like when I want to solve or answer a problem. And eventually it will apply to my reloading sequence and hopefully a .000 one hole group. Its just that I am in the middle of proving or disproving a theory at this time.
I will move on to something different soon. probably shoot some naked bullets against my Boron coated.
you have sparked a chord here because now i want to know how a low es is detrimental. Oh Oh ..the addiction grows LOL
Good shooting bro

 

[denobravo]

I Bumped it for you, it's on this reloading page

I dont know how to find it ?? can you copy paste the page url
thanks