About how dumb am I ? Neck turning

[Wolfdog91]

So long story Short ( and feel free to make fun of me and my ignorance if that what gets your jollies ) Im back playing with .22tcm and the main issue I'm having is my home made brass. Necks are too thick to chamber so had to neck turn right ? So did some reading watched some videos and got a lil K&M deal, .22 cal got a 23° cutter to match my .22 TCM sammi drawing for the should angle and all. So here the deal I guess I skipped over the Mandrel part because I was beyond confused why after I formed my brass I couldn't get it to go on my pilot..

Noticed right about here , a bit below the case mouth there was always kinda a lil slight indent like a crimp. No maker how short I made my brass it was there



So after a lot of tinkering just decided I could make my necks longer and just trim that off ....which worked actually . Now got em to when I get stuff trimmed to spec that crimp or whatever it is is cut off and it slide on the pilot nice and easy


....well got to talking on discord and someone asked how I exposed the cases...and then talk of mandrel cam about ...and yeah .... Again guess I missed or skipped the part about mandrel but yeah ... So I got 25 piece made up like this ...so the question is how bad did I mess up ? Their goin in a lil 12" AR-15 so I don't need the upmost precision. Also how tight does it have to be for an expanded mandrel? At least for initial turning ? Again I'm JUST doing this to get my brass to chamber. I have a lil deal for I use for my case bulles that's basically an expander Mandrel ( more of an up dated M-die type deal ) and it's a
230 x .226 would .226 be too much for neck turning or ? Because I was worried about wobbling or something possibly. I mean I played with some and it seemed to work good but idk
( Messed this one up a bit jus playing around but all the others are in the dryer )


So...about how dumb was I ? Will these work half decent? Will I blow face off if I try them ? Or should they be fine for shooting varmints out of a 12" barrel AR pistol?I've only made 25 total I was planning on using so no biggie if I HAVE TO Scrap them
Thanks

Edit: btw I can always buy some more stuff for future endeavors ,it's just I work away from home for most of the month so while I'm home I'm kinda stuck with what I have / ordered while I was gone so.... Also don't have a really good reloading shop close by like Monday so I have to order about everything

 

[brokeasajoke]

I've always used a K&M expander before I turned my 308 brass. Wonder if a .22 Lee collet neck sizing die of some kind would help you in any way.

 

[Rank Amateur]

Sorry if I’m skipping part of the background info you provided, but I’m responding regarding the expander mandrel size (and perhaps the process). Most neck turning tools cut the outside of the neck and the neck/shoulder junction. The preliminary step to this is to push the imperfections/bulges/doughnut/etc to the outside so that they can be shaved off evenly by your neck turner's blade. For that to happen optimally, you want to expand each neck immediately before you neck turn, and you want the expander mandrel to leave the inside diameter of the neck JUST larger than the turning mandrel itself. I recommend against using some random-sized expander mandrel. Rather, pick up the expander mandrel produced by the SAME company that produces the neck turning mandrel. The expander is usually one-thousandth larger than the turning mandrel, so after expanding, the spring-back of your brass leaves the ID of the neck one-thousandth or less larger than the turning mandrel. That ensures that there is no wobble of the brass around the turning mandrel and keeps the thickness of the cut even.

Perhaps more than you were asking? No need to cut off imperfections (like the mouth) prior to turning as the proper expander mandrel will iron out those imperfections, push them to the outside of the neck, and the neck turner will just shave them away.

I’m also going to presume you have some way of accurately measuring neck brass thickness before/after turning? Be careful of cutting too deeply into the neck/shoulder joint. Good luck.

 

[bozo699]

I do t Think your dumb at all but I do think you have some issues, follow Rank Amateur’s advice and you will be fine.
Wayne

 

[Wolfdog91]

Sorry if I’m skipping part of the background info you provided, but I’m responding regarding the expander mandrel size (and perhaps the process). Most neck turning tools cut the outside of the neck and the neck/shoulder junction. The preliminary step to this is to push the imperfections/bulges/doughnut/etc to the outside so that they can be shaved off evenly by your neck turner's blade. For that to happen optimally, you want to expand each neck immediately before you neck turn, and you want the expander mandrel to leave the inside diameter of the neck JUST larger than the turning mandrel itself. I recommend against using some random-sized expander mandrel. Rather, pick up the expander mandrel produced by the SAME company that produces the neck turning mandrel. The expander is usually one-thousandth larger than the turning mandrel, so after expanding, the spring-back of your brass leaves the ID of the neck one-thousandth or less larger than the turning mandrel. That ensures that there is no wobble of the brass around the turning mandrel and keeps the thickness of the cut even.

Perhaps more than you were asking? No need to cut off imperfections (like the mouth) prior to turning as the proper expander mandrel will iron out those imperfections, push them to the outside of the neck, and the neck turner will just shave them away.

I’m also going to presume you have some way of accurately measuring neck brass thickness before/after turning? Be careful of cutting too deeply into the neck/shoulder joint. Good luck.

Well the main deal right now is simply I don't have the " proper" set up as far as the Mandrel. I can order one for later work but the main question is, for what I'm doing...do I really need that level of precision? I mean will this suffice just for making plinking or varmit blasting ammo ? I'm pretty sure this would be far out of spec for competitive stuff but to be honest if this keeps MOA I'll be pretty happy all things considered. Like is it safe or ?

As far as measuring well it's less then ideal but it's been getting me brass that works so.. honestly I just keep forgetting to order a ball mic.. especially when I'm not sure what else I'd use one for past this

 

[Rank Amateur]

Not sure any of us can answer the question as we don’t know the dimensions of your chamber, the final sizes of your brass, and your risk tolerance. I’m NOT saying that any of this happened, but do recommend you measuring to be sure it hasn’t. If you cut too much brass from the neck, you may not be able to maintain adequate “neck tension” to retain the bullet properly. That may not be dangerous, but would certainly affect precision. If the necks were over-expanded before turning, you may have made irregular cuts leaving thick and thin sections around the neck. Again PROBABLY not dangerous unless irregularities create weak spots that can fail during firing. Same with cutting too deeply into the shoulder. Pictures can often be deceiving, but the outside surface of the turned neck you show above shows gouges which may yield weak spots (depending on how thick the neck brass is). Gouges may have been caused by the case wobbling around the turning mandrel. Just for reference, the expanded brass should not slip onto the turning mandrel “easily”. They should feel like a snug fit, and you should require some lubrication inside the necks to allow them to slide onto (and spin around) the mandrel during turning.

There are specialty tools for measuring neck thickness, but a general purpose ball micrometer is perhaps the right tool. You could also load a couple of those cases (no need for primer or powder), and measure the outside dimension of the neck with a bullet in it. Assuming .22 centerfire bullets are generally .224” in diameter, subtract that from your measured diameter and divide by 2. Measure several places around the neck to see if you have variations in thickness. If your measurements yield brass neck thickness of less than 10 thousandths anywhere, I (personally) would toss the brass. To be fair, turning necks to 10 thousandths thickness is NOT unusual for some benchrest purposes, but that is with known, premium brass cases.

Hope some of this is useful.

 

[bozo699]

Well the main deal right now is simply I don't have the " proper" set up as far as the Mandrel. I can order one for later work but the main question is, for what I'm doing...do I really need that level of precision? I mean will this suffice just for making plinking or varmit blasting ammo ? I'm pretty sure this would be far out of spec for competitive stuff but to be honest if this keeps MOA I'll be pretty happy all things considered. Like is it safe or ?

As far as measuring well it's less then ideal but it's been getting me brass that works so.. honestly I just keep forgetting to order a ball mic.. especially when I'm not sure what else I'd use one for past this
View attachment 1627211View attachment 1627212View attachment 1627213

Bottom line is if your going to wildcat you need tools and equipment, it’s a deep rabbit hole but this isn’t a stamp collection, your dealing with high pressures being able to properly measure your stuff, knowing chamber dimensions etc etc is vital. Is there someone local that can mentor you with this? I’m not being mean but you just can’t throw this stuff together, it’s not about will it produce moa accuracy it’s about can you still see after a shooting session.
Wayne

 

[PhilC]

Good info above. Judging by your pictures above it appears you've turned 80% - 90% of the shoulder, that's too much. You only want to "kiss" the shoulder below the neck/shoulder junction to ensure removal of donut material that moved to exterior of your case during expanding.

I recommend a decent inexpensive ball mic to measure neck diameter, exacting precision for your stated use is not necessary. I bought this one, checked against feeler gauges it is spot on and works well for my needs.

Assume you're using NOE's expander plugs, they can work so long as you adjust your die to only expand the neck the first diameter. Personally, I'd get the correct expander and turning mandrels, polished SS will work fine for what you're doing, just be sure to use some lube (Imperial sizing die wax works well). A pair of SS mandrels from 21st Century are ~$30 less shipping.

I bought Sinclair SS mandrels long before nitride hit the scene and still use them for small volume turning.

 

[wedgy]

 

[K22]

He who has never done something stupid, cast the first criticism.

Being a simple man, this post reflects the type of migraines that I go out of my way to avoid. This is why I opt for legacy cartridges and keep the reloading as simple as possible. True, I will never shoot benchrest quality groups, but I like the trade off and besides, I do not need that kind of precision.

However, I salute those who do shoot that quality of groups and their dedication to the details necessary to accomplish this feat. It's just not for me.

 

[Webster]

So long story Short ( and feel free to make fun of me and my ignorance if that what gets your jollies ) Im back playing with .22tcm and the main issue I'm having is my home made brass. Necks are too thick to chamber so had to neck turn right ? So did some reading watched some videos and got a lil K&M deal, .22 cal got a 23° cutter to match my .22 TCM sammi drawing for the should angle and all. So here the deal I guess I skipped over the Mandrel part because I was beyond confused why after I formed my brass I couldn't get it to go on my pilot..View attachment 1627186

Noticed right about here , a bit below the case mouth there was always kinda a lil slight indent like a crimp. No maker how short I made my brass it was there
View attachment 1627191
View attachment 1627187

So after a lot of tinkering just decided I could make my necks longer and just trim that off ....which worked actually . Now got em to when I get stuff trimmed to spec that crimp or whatever it is is cut off and it slide on the pilot nice and easy
View attachment 1627188View attachment 1627189

....well got to talking on discord and someone asked how I exposed the cases...and then talk of mandrel cam about ...and yeah .... Again guess I missed or skipped the part about mandrel but yeah ... So I got 25 piece made up like this ...so the question is how bad did I mess up ? Their goin in a lil 12" AR-15 so I don't need the upmost precision. Also how tight does it have to be for an expanded mandrel? At least for initial turning ? Again I'm JUST doing this to get my brass to chamber. I have a lil deal for I use for my case bulles that's basically an expander Mandrel ( more of an up dated M-die type deal ) and it's a
230 x .226 would .226 be too much for neck turning or ? Because I was worried about wobbling or something possibly. I mean I played with some and it seemed to work good but idk
( Messed this one up a bit jus playing around but all the others are in the dryer )
View attachment 1627190

So...about how dumb was I ? Will these work half decent? Will I blow face off if I try them ? Or should they be fine for shooting varmints out of a 12" barrel AR pistol?I've only made 25 total I was planning on using so no biggie if I HAVE TO Scrap them
Thanks

Edit: btw I can always buy some more stuff for future endeavors ,it's just I work away from home for most of the month so while I'm home I'm kinda stuck with what I have / ordered while I was gone so.... Also don't have a really good reloading shop close by like Monday so I have to order about everything

Your not supposed to cut into the shoulder.

 

[Wolfdog91]

He who has never done something stupid, cast the first criticism.

Being a simple man, this post reflects the type of migraines that I go out of my way to avoid. This is why I opt for legacy cartridges and keep the reloading as simple as possible. True, I will never shoot benchrest quality groups, but I like the trade off and besides, I do not need that kind of precision.

However, I salute those who do shoot that quality of groups and their dedication to the details necessary to accomplish this feat. It's just not for me.

.....y'all do know that .22 TCM isn't a wild cat right ? I can buy factory ammo fairly cheap actually... And still have some of the brass from the last few boxes.... can't find brass for sale anywhere that's not a scam site though...which is weird... Anyhow I'm legit just messing with this stuff because it's neat .... Plus it's getting shot in a 12" AR pistol Soo....not really a precision deal

 

[Wolfdog91]

And nd on the should deal....though you supposed to mate the cutting edge with shr should neck junction and run it like that...which I did... I mean I guess I did go a lil over board but most of the stuff I read showed the should getting cut as well so...

 

[Wolfdog91]

Good info above. Judging by your pictures above it appears you've turned 80% - 90% of the shoulder, that's too much. You only want to "kiss" the shoulder below the neck/shoulder junction to ensure removal of donut material that moved to exterior of your case during expanding.

I recommend a decent inexpensive ball mic to measure neck diameter, exacting precision for your stated use is not necessary. I bought this one, checked against feeler gauges it is spot on and works well for my needs.

Assume you're using NOE's expander plugs, they can work so long as you adjust your die to only expand the neck the first diameter. Personally, I'd get the correct expander and turning mandrels, polished SS will work fine for what you're doing, just be sure to use some lube (Imperial sizing die wax works well). A pair of SS mandrels from 21st Century are ~$30 less shipping.

I bought Sinclair SS mandrels long before nitride hit the scene and still use them for small volume turning.

Well for $30 guess it ain't too bad all things considered... And someone dmed me about a cheap pair of digital ball mics that work well. Same company that makes my calipers so why not

 

[3Ackleys]

I have purchased 22 TCM brass, and ammo directly from Armscor (advanced Tactical). They have it in stock for $41.77/200
That's under .21 cents each. They also have loaded ammo for .44 cents apiece.

https://advancedtactical.com/armscorprecision-22tcm-unprimed-nickel-cases-200rnd-bag/

https://advancedtactical.com/armscorusa-22tcm-40gr-jhp-nickel-casing-50rnd-box/

 

[Dave M.]

So long story Short ( and feel free to make fun of me and my ignorance if that what gets your jollies ) Im back playing with .22tcm and the main issue I'm having is my home made brass. Necks are too thick to chamber so had to neck turn right ? So did some reading watched some videos and got a lil K&M deal, .22 cal got a 23° cutter to match my .22 TCM sammi drawing for the should angle and all. So here the deal I guess I skipped over the Mandrel part because I was beyond confused why after I formed my brass I couldn't get it to go on my pilot..View attachment 1627186

Noticed right about here , a bit below the case mouth there was always kinda a lil slight indent like a crimp. No maker how short I made my brass it was there
View attachment 1627191
View attachment 1627187

So after a lot of tinkering just decided I could make my necks longer and just trim that off ....which worked actually . Now got em to when I get stuff trimmed to spec that crimp or whatever it is is cut off and it slide on the pilot nice and easy
View attachment 1627188View attachment 1627189

....well got to talking on discord and someone asked how I exposed the cases...and then talk of mandrel cam about ...and yeah .... Again guess I missed or skipped the part about mandrel but yeah ... So I got 25 piece made up like this ...so the question is how bad did I mess up ? Their goin in a lil 12" AR-15 so I don't need the upmost precision. Also how tight does it have to be for an expanded mandrel? At least for initial turning ? Again I'm JUST doing this to get my brass to chamber. I have a lil deal for I use for my case bulles that's basically an expander Mandrel ( more of an up dated M-die type deal ) and it's a
230 x .226 would .226 be too much for neck turning or ? Because I was worried about wobbling or something possibly. I mean I played with some and it seemed to work good but idk
( Messed this one up a bit jus playing around but all the others are in the dryer )
View attachment 1627190

So...about how dumb was I ? Will these work half decent? Will I blow face off if I try them ? Or should they be fine for shooting varmints out of a 12" barrel AR pistol?I've only made 25 total I was planning on using so no biggie if I HAVE TO Scrap them
Thanks

Edit: btw I can always buy some more stuff for future endeavors ,it's just I work away from home for most of the month so while I'm home I'm kinda stuck with what I have / ordered while I was gone so.... Also don't have a really good reloading shop close by like Monday so I have to order about everything

Ouch on the turning here. Not trying to be too critical but I’d throw out the pieces you did and properly expand the necks to the proper size to just barely slip on to the turning mandrel. Clearly, your brass was wobbling all over the place when you turned these. Also, why are you cutting so much of the shoulder?

 

[bozo699]

.....y'all do know that .22 TCM isn't a wild cat right ? I can buy factory ammo fairly cheap actually... And still have some of the brass from the last few boxes.... can't find brass for sale anywhere that's not a scam site though...which is weird... Anyhow I'm legit just messing with this stuff because it's neat .... Plus it's getting shot in a 12" AR pistol Soo....not really a precision deal

And nd on the should deal....though you supposed to mate the cutting edge with shr should neck junction and run it like that...which I did... I mean I guess I did go a lil over board but most of the stuff I read showed the should getting cut as well so...
View attachment 1627643View attachment 1627644View attachment 1627645

Well as far as I’m concerned when you make a case outta something else it’s a form of wildcatting and if you think turning that much in on the shoulder after you came on here and asked?…. Then I guess you got this. Good luck with your endeavors
Wayne

 

[Wolfdog91]

So already had these prime so said why not. Actually they shot better than the factory ones , reckon they'll do better then I get the Mandrels

 

[Wolfdog91]

Ouch on the turning here. Not trying to be too critical but I’d throw out the pieces you did and properly expand the necks to the proper size to just barely slip on to the turning mandrel. Clearly, your brass was wobbling all over the place when you turned these. Also, why are you cutting so much of the shoulder?

Well like I said I was just trying to do what I read which was to set the cutter where it finished at the shoulder angle. And that's what I got. And actually a lot of the pictures I see are pretty similar including ones from this site so , honestly was just following the instructions.

 

[Sandstorm]

The more ya mess with this stuff the the better ya get.
Just try not to blow yourself up in the process and all is good.