A shocking lack of safe gun handling practices

[Kevin57]

I can give a very real world happening from over 20 years ago that ended in Benchrest Matches being cancelled at the American Shooting Complex in West Houston.

Glenn Newick had been holding NBRSA and Club Benchrest Matches for several years. He had an agreement with the Range Manager that the right side Benchrest Range was his on Match Days, and the NBRSA rules governing the handling of Rifles was in play. This section of the range was separate from the everyday public shooting line.

We had a Club Match one Sunday Morning, and the Range Manager was out of town. During the Match, one of the other employs came over.

He saw Rifles in cleaning cradles, on loading tables, and being carried by competitors. He immediately shut down things and demanded to know what the heck was going on. Glenn tried to explain to him that the arrangement he had with Range concerning safety, and he was running the Match according to NBRSA protocols.

He was having none of it. Everybody said “screw this” packed up everything and left.

Due to the ignorance of that employ, that ended the Benchrest Matches at American Shooting Center. The Range Manager later said that due to liabilities, we could no longer have Matches that were run under the safety rules of the NBRSA, and would have to obey all range cease fire rules and gun handling protocols.

That ended that.

That is the concept of the overly important prison guard range officer. Knows every rule but doesn't understand anything.

 

[K22]

OK, more stories. If it is truly awful and you or the match director are not doing anything to correct this "downright awful" gun handling...why are you putting yourself in such an unsafe situation?

At the range, I do call the shooter on it, as diplomatically as possible. Most respond favorably, those that don't or become confrontational, I pack up and leave. Two years ago, I reported a fellow shooter to the club's officers because he walked down the range without clearing the range and I had a pistol in my hand. The guy was expelled from the club.

I haven't shot competition since the mid-90's but none of our match directors will tolerate unsafe gun handling which was rare if ever during a match. I can't remember one incident.

 

[drop_point]

You guys would probably really come apart if I told some of the stories from the un-staffed conservation range I use for zeroing and load development. Its open to the general public and it is completely unmanned except one day a week for maintenance.

I have seen somebody shot there. I have also seen people shoot televisions and such on the concrete pistol bays. I've seen people walk downrange without calling ceasefire. I've also had people pick up a pistol and start shooting during ceasefire. That's why I bought my own place.

 

[Kevin57]

You guys would probably really come apart if I told some of the stories from the un-staffed conservation range I use for zeroing and load development. Its open to the general public and it is completely unmanned except one day a week for maintenance.

I have seen somebody shot there. I have also seen people shoot televisions and such on the concrete pistol bays. I've seen people walk downrange without calling ceasefire. I've also had people pick up a pistol and start shooting during ceasefire. That's why I bought my own place.

I suggest you don't go there. Why on earth would you go to such a dangerous place and then complain about it?

 

[243winxb]

I like this one-.......


"A customer of ours came into the shop today and brought with him a Tikka barreled action that has a very strange exit hole. The customer claimed he didn't see this hole until he got the gun home from the range and noticed it."

More photos, 2nd page.

The original photo.

 

[Kevin57]

The whole “bolt out” thing can create dangerous situations. A round could be left in the chamber and the bolt removed. But a chamber flag ensures no round is in the chamber.

Rules of safety should be followed at all times.

Also, somebody mentioned concealed weapons. Those are not “pointed at you” as they are holstered and nobody handling them. Pointing is a controlled and deliberate act. Guns are dangerous and there is inherit risk in carrying one or being around folks who are carrying them. Look at all the Sig P320 issues lately.

So the extractor failure problem is so severe you fear that commonly on a rifle that an UNFIRED round will be left unextracted in a rifle. No other rounds when the shooter was firing were left in the chamber...only the last one? This is a dangerous situation without a bolt? How is it fired without a bolt? A firing pin? And it must be stuck in the chamber or an unfired round would simply FALL OUT! Probably the same with a fired case.

Humor us all before you post this crap. Chamber a sized case with no powder or primer to be safe. Remove the bolt and see what happens. I use chamber flags on LR. I am fine with them but please less nonsense on hysterical nonissues. We have enough uneducated crap from know nothing politicians.

Really?

What is dangerous about a rifle without a bolt????????

 

[drop_point]

So the extractor failure problem is so severe you fear that commonly on a rifle that an UNFIRED round will be left unextracted in a rifle. No other rounds when the shooter was firing were left in the chamber...only the last one? This is a dangerous situation without a bolt? How is it fired without a bolt? A firing pin? And it must be stuck in the chamber or an unfired round would simply FALL OUT! Probably the same with a fired case.

Humor us all before you post this crap. Chamber a sized case with no powder or primer to be safe. Remove the bolt and see what happens. I use chamber flags on LR. I am fine with them but please less nonsense on hysterical nonissues. We have enough uneducated crap from know nothing politicians.

Really?

What is dangerous about a rifle without a bolt????????

Reading comprehension is key. Read it again slowly. Out loud if you have to.

While you're at it, explain me how using a chamber flag and not pointing your rifle at somebody is a big ask.

 

[drop_point]

I suggest you don't go there. Why on earth would you go to such a dangerous place and then complain about it?

Again, reading comprehension not your strong suit. Where did I complain? I stated what happened.

 

[Kevin57]

I like this one-.......


"A customer of ours came into the shop today and brought with him a Tikka barreled action that has a very strange exit hole. The customer claimed he didn't see this hole until he got the gun home from the range and noticed it."

More photos, 2nd page.

The original photo.
View attachment 1665102

Again, reading comprehension not your strong suit. Where did I complain? I stated what happened.

The whole “bolt out” thing can create dangerous situations. A round could be left in the chamber and the bolt removed. But a chamber flag ensures no round is in the chamber.

Rules of safety should be followed at all times.

This is what you wrote...did you forget? You said, "The whole “bolt out” thing can create dangerous situations."
How is a bolt out a dangerous situation? Same crap. you did not deal with my question. how it that a dangerous situation. Do rounds spontaneously ignite without a bolt and firing pin?

IF this happened. How is this dangerous?
How many broken extractors have you seen? I have seen none in 55 years of shooting.
How many rounds have you seen left in a chamber after a bolt was removed?

I will post it a second time maybe you can respond to my questions.

"So, the extractor failure problem is so severe you fear that commonly on a rifle that an UNFIRED round will be left unextracted in a rifle. No other rounds when the shooter was firing were left in the chamber...only the last one? This is a dangerous situation without a bolt? How is it fired without a bolt? A firing pin? And it must be stuck in the chamber or an unfired round would simply FALL OUT! Probably the same with a fired case."

Humor us all before you post this crap. Chamber a sized case with no powder or primer to be safe. Remove the bolt and see what happens. I use chamber flags on LR. I am fine with them but please less nonsense on hysterical nonissues. We have enough uneducated crap from know nothing politicians.

Really?

What is dangerous about a rifle without a bolt????????

 

[Kevin57]

I suggest you don't go there. Why on earth would you go to such a dangerous place and then complain about it?

Here's what you wrote:

You guys would probably really come apart if I told some of the stories from the un-staffed conservation range I use for zeroing and load development. Its open to the general public and it is completely unmanned except one day a week for maintenance.

I have seen somebody shot there. I have also seen people shoot televisions and such on the concrete pistol bays. I've seen people walk downrange without calling ceasefire. I've also had people pick up a pistol and start shooting during ceasefire. That's why I bought my own place.

You go to a place where you saw someone shot, people are shooting TVs in pistol bays, people walk downrange when there is no ceasefire but you go there. Sorry are you reading what you write? Everything about the lack of range safety seems like a complaint to me. But...you went there knowing what was going on.

Wow.

 

[drop_point]

The whole “bolt out” thing can create dangerous situations. A round could be left in the chamber and the bolt removed. But a chamber flag ensures no round is in the chamber.

Rules of safety should be followed at all times.

This is what you wrote...did you forget? You said, "The whole “bolt out” thing can create dangerous situations."
How is a bolt out a dangerous situation? Same crap. you did not deal with my question. how it that a dangerous situation. Do rounds spontaneously ignite without a bolt and firing pin?

IF this happened. How is this dangerous?
How many broken extractors have you seen? I have seen none in 55 years of shooting.
How many rounds have you seen left in a chamber after a bolt was removed?

I will post it a second time maybe you can respond to my questions.

"So, the extractor failure problem is so severe you fear that commonly on a rifle that an UNFIRED round will be left unextracted in a rifle. No other rounds when the shooter was firing were left in the chamber...only the last one? This is a dangerous situation without a bolt? How is it fired without a bolt? A firing pin? And it must be stuck in the chamber or an unfired round would simply FALL OUT! Probably the same with a fired case."

Humor us all before you post this crap. Chamber a sized case with no powder or primer to be safe. Remove the bolt and see what happens. I use chamber flags on LR. I am fine with them but please less nonsense on hysterical nonissues. We have enough uneducated crap from know nothing politicians.

Really?

What is dangerous about a rifle without a bolt????????

Because you failed to read the whole story, I can quote it for you again.

I was hunting prairie dogs with a gentleman that pulled his bolt out of his rifle to make it "safe". He put the bolt back in to case the rifle and worked the bolt two or three times to make sure the chamber was clear. Then he closed the bolt and pushed the trigger to relax the firing pin. The round nearly blew my head off. I had burns along the left side of my face and couldn't hear for several days. Fortunately, I had eye protection on. The round was a .223 WSSM.

His extractor had failed and he didn't ensure the chamber was clear. It almost cost me my life. I guess I'm just a safety sally and not pointing your rifle at somebody and using a chamber flag is too much to ask.

So imagine, you're sitting at a shooting table shooting dogs. You chamber a round, then don't fire it. You open the bolt and sit there waiting for dogs. You don't shoot again, you pull the bolt out of the gun while you spot for somebody else to make it "safe". You don't realize the extractor didn't grab the round in the chamber and eject it. Its time to pick up and leave. You put your bolt back in and close it. As you pick up your rifle you decide to relax the firing pin out of habit. BOOM. A chamber flag ensures no round is in the chamber.

Please, before you get another response, tell me why it is a problem for you to not point your rifle at somebody? How does a rule of using a chamber flag ruin a sport?

 

[drop_point]

Here's what you wrote:

You guys would probably really come apart if I told some of the stories from the un-staffed conservation range I use for zeroing and load development. Its open to the general public and it is completely unmanned except one day a week for maintenance.

I have seen somebody shot there. I have also seen people shoot televisions and such on the concrete pistol bays. I've seen people walk downrange without calling ceasefire. I've also had people pick up a pistol and start shooting during ceasefire. That's why I bought my own place.

You go to a place where you saw someone shot, people are shooting TVs in pistol bays, people walk downrange when there is no ceasefire but you go there. Sorry are you reading what you write? Everything about the lack of range safety seems like a complaint to me. But...you went there knowing what was going on.

Wow.

I know exactly what I wrote. The problem is you interpreted and said I did something I did not. Sharing what I've seen shouldn't be so offensive to you.

 

[drop_point]

Nobody including me said that. I believe in safety 1st, 2nd and 3rd. Read my posts. But the amount of hysteria about perceived threats from rifles with chamber flags and without bolts is idiotic.
I'm done with this...

I thought you were done with this?

 

[Kevin57]

Reading comprehension is key. Read it again slowly. Out loud if you have to.

While you're at it, explain me how using a chamber flag and not pointing your rifle at somebody is a big ask.

Not what you said. Not your point. if you don't like the rules of the match...don't go. Just nonsense about dangerous rifles without bolts.

Because you failed to read the whole story, I can quote it for you again.



So imagine, you're sitting at a shooting table shooting dogs. You chamber a round, then don't fire it. You open the bolt and sit there waiting for dogs. You don't shoot again, you pull the bolt out of the gun while you spot for somebody else to make it "safe". You don't realize the extractor didn't grab the round in the chamber and eject it. Its time to pick up and leave. You put your bolt back in and close it. As you pick up your rifle you decide to relax the firing pin out of habit. BOOM. A chamber flag ensures no round is in the chamber.

Please, before you get another response, tell me why it is a problem for you to not point your rifle at somebody?

I don't do it and only have a problem with hysterics who spout nonsense about theoretical problems. Your shooting partner was UNSAFE. If he pointed a rifle at you he was unsafe. If he would have not placed the bolt back in his rifle he would have been SAFE. If he can't figure out by looking down the barrel or not randomly pulling the trigger you can't help him. He was at fault and I suggest you avoid him.
So, you go to ranges where people are shot, Hang out with people who randomly "relax a trigger" with no thought of where the muzzle is pointed and this is somehow the rest of our faults????? You and your friends may do all of that....My bolt is in my bolt holster until I case my rifle.

Just stories about stupid people acting stupidly. There is a million of them.

You never told me how a rifle without a bolt is dangerous. If the asshat had not put his bolt back in he would have been SAFE. Do you get that?????? Don't hang around with asshats the point rifles at you. It's really very simple. BUT if we are a benchrest match and I am walking of the line with my rifle with my bolt in a holster...don't be a hysteric.

If you don't like the established match safety protocol...go fishing.

 

[Kevin57]

I thought you were done with this?

No, maybe you can actually read and answer simple questions instead of telling stories.
I doubt it.

OK just one more time...How is a rifle without a bolt dangerous and why do you go to ranges where people are shot?

 

[drop_point]

Not what you said. Not your point. if you don't like the rules of the match...don't go. Just nonsense about dangerous rifles without bolts.

I don't do it and only have a problem with hysterics who spout nonsense about theoretical problems. Your shooting partner was UNSAFE. If he pointed a rifle at you he was unsafe. If he would have not placed the bolt back in his rifle he would have been SAFE. If he can't figure out by looking down the barrel or not randomly pulling the trigger you can't help him. He was at fault and I suggest you avoid him.
So, you go to ranges where people are shot, Hang out with people who randomly "relax a trigger" with no thought of where the muzzle is pointed and this is somehow the rest of our faults????? You and your friends may do all of that....My bolt is in my bolt holster until I case my rifle.

Just stories about stupid people acting stupidly. There is a million of them.

You never told me how a rifle without a bolt is dangerous. If the asshat had not put his bolt back in he would have been SAFE. Do you get that?????? Don't hang around with asshats the point rifles at you. It's really very simple. BUT if we are a benchrest match and I am walking of the line with my rifle with my bolt in a holster...don't be a hysteric.

If you don't like the established match safety protocol...go fishing.

You seem to be coming unglued with the extreme punctuation and random capitalization. I don't know why you're so angry at so many of the posters here. Relax, we are all on the same side despite your accusations.

I don't go to matches where they allow unsafe behavior. If somebody points a rifle at me, intentionally or not and with or without a bolt in the gun, I'm going to ask them to stop. If that hurts somebody's feelings, that's on them.

As I said, and you ignored, I bought my own land because of the safety violations at the local range. I had had enough of random people that do not exercise common-sense.

You agree, he was unsafe, and unsafe behavior should be avoided. Mistakes and accidents happen. You cannot predict them. He had never been unsafe before. As you can see, a freak situation happened that was compounded by a series of events that nearly resulted in something tragic.


Follow the rules:

-Treat all weapons as if they are loaded.
-Keep your finger straight and off the trigger until you are ready to fire.
-Know your target's foreground and background.
-Don't point your weapon at anything you do not wish to destroy.

When we believe a firearm is empty, we need to visually and physically check the chamber. A long chamber flag does that. It doesn't hurt anybody to have one in that physically ensures the bolt cannot close AND that the chamber is clear.

And for the love of Pete, don't handle your firearm when people are down range, even if you believe it is impossible for it to fire, it is rude and the other party cannot see your chamber flag or know your bolt is removed. Point your rifle with the bolt removed at a cop and see how he responds.

We follow these rules and there is no major risk in shooting somebody you do not intend to. Its like checking your brakes in your car or wearing a seat-belt.

 

[drop_point]

No, maybe you can actually read and answer simple questions instead of telling stories.
I doubt it.

OK just one more time...How is a rifle without a bolt dangerous and why do you go to ranges where people are shot?

I did not say the rifle without a bolt is dangerous, I said it can lead to a dangerous situation. This is because removing the bolt does not ensure an empty chamber. When one replaces the bolt, the chamber needs to be checked. That is why I said I like a chamber flag; and in conjunction with a removed bolt is even better. That's why I told what happened to me. The extractor didn't pull the round out of the chamber, then he removed the bolt thinking it was cleared as he had not loaded the rifle again.

I've seen failed extractors on bolt guns twice. I've seen it many, many more times on ARs. I've seen handguns leave rounds chambered after pulling the slide many times as well. Visual inspection is key.

Please, work on putting words in others' mouths.

 

[Kevin57]

Guns don’t cause dangerous situations. People do.
Don’t do stupid things and stupid things don’t happen. Like pulling the trigger when you don’t know where the muzzle is pointing like your friend.

Bolts out rifles do not cause dangerous situations. Unsafe people do. You can’t get that. I suspect you don’t understand the concept. As far as you being the punctuation police…now that’s funny. You hang around unsafe people and then lecture the rest of us.

From the people who need to eliminate 1000% of controllable risk. (That’s idiotic and impossible) to storytellers who justify extreme positions because the have have had an alleged unsafe experience to then justify forcing your ideas on how a match should be run on everyone.

Good luck, be safe. 48 years ago I carried a Bolt Gun for Uncle Sam. I understand safety. There are just too many pretenders telling me things I know to not be relevant for my taste.

 

[drop_point]

Now you're saying "alleged". So you're calling me a liar as you put more words in my mouth? I'm finished with you. You've earned your place on the list. You have a good day now.

 

[Kevin57]

You don’t get it and never will. I have no idea if what you are saying it true or not.
And I don’t care. You complain about an unsafe range where people got shot and commit all variety of gross safety violations but you keep going.back. Doesn’t seem to make sense to me. That is what you wrote. Not me.

But bolts out of rifles can cause an unsafe situation. And you want everybody to use chamber flags.

Do you not see the oddity in what you wrote?
No, of course you don’t.

Best of luck