A question for Borescope users regarding cleaning

[Jeff A]

I recently purchased a Hawkeye Borescope to better evaluate my barrels and cleaning procedures. I have been going through my guns, staring with pistols, and cleaning them. I soon realized none of them were REALLY clean.

The big surprise was my Cooper M21 Varmint extreme in 6mm Remington. This gun has only seen 364 rounds fired, all range testing and not varmint hunting. After removing the copper, which was relatively easy, I have gone to work on carbon. I have used Slip 2000 Carbon Killer, JB Bore Cleaning paste and I still have areas of black deposits which almost look like firecracking. It is not even around the circumference of the bore but is largely in the grooves, but sometimes on the lands. After my initial attempt with Slip 2000, I plugged the chamber and filled the bore and let it soak for more than 30 minutes. I then patched the bore with Kroil and dried it. Much of what I'm seeing is still there. It is hard to believe that this rifle is that bad. The bore finish is good, no surprise there as it is a Cooper. Now I need to get some fresh ideas. Any help here?

 

[Mudcat]

Dont let a borescope drive you nuts....keep in mind that the rifle shot just fine before you got the scope, right?

 

[Jeff A]

Yes it did. Just can't figure out what is in there. My AR-15 (which also has a Wilson barrel BTW) does not look like this.

 

[Tozguy]

The borescope will help you locate any stubborn fouling which you can then scrub using short strokes over the spot with JB (without doing the whole bore). When the remaining carbon fouling is in long thin streaks and not lumpy looking I leave it be.

 

[Jeff A]

The borescope will help you locate any stubborn fouling which you can then scrub using short strokes over the spot with JB (without doing the whole bore). When the remaining carbon fouling is in long thin streaks and not lumpy looking I leave it be.

There is a little lumpy stuff left around the mouth of the case. What is in the bore looks to be flat but has an appearance of the dried lake bed, like firecracking. Would like to get it really clean and then monitor my normal cleanings.

Has anyone else seen carbon that has a cracked look? I'm a Borescope newbie!

 

[Mudcat]

Shoot some pics of what you are seeing. Get your camera settings right and it works pretty well.

 

[Jeff A]

Shoot some pics of what you are seeing. Get your camera settings right and it works pretty well.

That would be a good thing! Got any tips? How good a camera do you need?

 

[Va Jim]

My opinion is a bore scope can be one of the worst tools to buy. You would absolutely die if you saw my barrel that I won the nationals with. Clean check and remember there will be black in your barrel.

Va Jim

 

[Mudcat]

That would be a good thing! Got any tips? How good a camera do you need?

I just used a generic Nikon pocket camera thats about 10 yrs old. Works good, just need to play with the setting until you get it right. even shot some video of a bore that I shot staiinless steel media down and made a mess, but dang bbl shoots great still. As VaJim says, dont let the borescope tell you things that it shouldnt. Remember, you are looking thru a microscope and the bbl is going to look like crap even after you clean it. What you are looking for is bad stuff, not plain old wear, firecracking etc. when you got no rifling for an inch out, or chunks of bbl missing, then freak out. otherwise, clean and go shoot.

 

[mikecr]

Only thing I watch for is carbon restrictions forming. Need to manage this.

 

[X Ring Accuracy]

In alot of barrels, a few rounds thru them will deposit some carbon or lead or copper in the small reccessess (sp?). Anyway, sometimes that is good on a factory type barrel. Think of it as smooting out / filling in the imperfections. If in fact you see some some bad juju, thats a different story.

 

[Tozguy]

Only thing I watch for is carbon restrictions forming. Need to manage this.

Mike,
Are you referring to the carbon accumulation at the end of the chamber or something else?
It is difficult for me to determine when carbon in the bore becomes a restriction from looking at it with a borescope. Your comments on what to look for might give me a clue.

VA Jim,
Would you feel like describing for us what your barrel looked like through the borescope?

Mike

 

[STS]

I would suggest that you place a cotton swab in the bore when you examine you barrel. Simply use the bore scope to push the swab forward a little at a time and then pull back with your scope and look at the bore just behind the cotton. The difference in light on the subject makes the bore look VERY different at times. Don't forget to push it on out the other end with a rod.

 

[mikecr]

Are you referring to the carbon accumulation at the end of the chamber or something else?

Yes & yes
I should have called it constriction.
Carbon rings(rough patches) can form some distance down the bore(like ~8"). If not managed they'll get worse, eventually reaching a point where performance is affected -yet removing it at this point would likely be as degrading to the bore (a nightmare to remove). You can eventually feel them with a dry patch, or watch with a borescope.

Filling in pits & cracks with carbon is ok, until it lifts the bore surface, and/or layers upward, causing constriction.
Manage it with JB or ISSO as seen with a borescope

 

[Irv Benzion]

Carbon is the most difficult fouling to remove as it is an element and does not disolve. It requires either abrasion or a surficant to seperate the carbon from the barrel steel. My current method is to use Bore Tech C4 carbon remover allowing that product soak over night after stroking 25 times with a brass brush. Alternate with Bore Tech Eliminator also using the over night soak again stroking 25 times with a nylon brush (Eliminator contains a copper remover). Try several days of this alternating regime. If fouling remains -- 50 strokes using JB's. Follow up with C4 and Eliminator allowing an overnight soak. You should be able to get down to bare metal. Fouling constists of layers of carbon and copper making the removal of both a two step chore. Always remember that: Shooting is fun and cleaning is work.

Wishing you small groups and no wind,

Irv Benzion

 

[Jeff A]

Carbon is the most difficult fouling to remove as it is an element and does not disolve. It requires either abrasion or a surficant to seperate the carbon from the barrel steel. My current method is to use Bore Tech C4 carbon remover allowing that product soak over night after stroking 25 times with a brass brush. Alternate with Bore Tech Eliminator also using the over night soak again stroking 25 times with a nylon brush (Eliminator contains a copper remover). Try several days of this alternating regime. If fouling remains -- 50 strokes using JB's. Follow up with C4 and Eliminator allowing an overnight soak. You should be able to get down to bare metal. Fouling constists of layers of carbon and copper making the removal of both a two step chore. Always remember that: Shooting is fun and cleaning is work.

Wishing you small groups and no wind,

Irv Benzion

The "Overnight Soak" is my next plan of attack. I Using Slip 2000 I did get some black out as evidenced by patches coming out black.

I did attempt pictures through the borescope but the comb of the stock prevented camera alignment and a practice picture from the muzzle end was just a blur.

 

[Irv Benzion]

Slip is a good product but it is not as efficient a carbon remover as Bore Tech C4. Additionally it is water based which could cause rusting in Chrome Moly barrels.

Irv Benzion

 

[Jeff A]

I finally have a clean bore!

Sitting overnight with Slip 2000 did little. Went to work on the bore again with JB on VFG Pellets on the appropriate Jag. After 50 strokes (one push and pull equals 1 stroke) most of the carbon was gone. I knew I was on to something when my gray cleaning rod started turning black. 50 more stroke with fresh JB and the bore is now clean. It will be interesting now to see how hard it is to maintain starting with a clean barrel. The bad news is that I can confirm the onset of fire cracking with just 364 rounds down this barrel. THAT sucks!

 

[Bob3700]

The fire cracking in that round count sounds normal for an overbore 6mm. 243 Wins are known as barrel burners, now add additional grains of powder that the 6mm Rem carries and it just happens faster.

That junction where the case neck stops and the throat starts is exactly where the cracking starts first.

On a cartridge of that type (really eats a throat), you might want to work that area often with your lapping compound. Keeping the throat smooth is the best approach to maintaining accuracy in that bbl. A rough throat impacts the bullet for the rest of its travel.

Other posters are correct in that the bbls don't have to be squeaky clean, they are designed to shoot fouled. With a perfectly clean bore, it will take several shots for the bbl to settle down and shoot well (your rebuilding that layer of fouling). So over cleaning will actually cost you more shots down the bbl in the long run. Couple that with all the cleaning rod action thru the bore and I guarantee you that bbl will stop shooting because of cleaning rod wear/damage.

Don't let your bore scope cause you to do more harm than good.

Bob

 

[Jeff A]

Thanks all for your valuable input.