The deputy that lives in the neighborhood told me he went to a crime scene where the victim told the drug guy he was coming for his money and it was not going to be pretty. The drug guy went to the only stop sign in the hood knowing the victim would have to stop. The drug guy hide in the bushes behind the stop sign and shoot the Vitim in the back of the head with and old AR15 with the 14 twist barrel and a 50 grain bullet. The deputy said if you aligned your self just right and looked through the little hole in the back of the guys head you could see blood and brains on the windshield, most of his face was not in its original position. No matter what you think about a 223/5.56 it is lethal and sometimes spectacularly.
A Different View
- Thread starter Outrider27
- Start date
Tactically, there is such a thing.
Challenged with a closing mob of pussies and armed with a 12ga, you're better served with a wide swath of scattershot than relatively few slugs. Nobody will hit the ground dead, but more will be hit in some manner and stop.
It isn't worth it to them.
It buys you plenty more time to reload (buckshot or slugs if desired).
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Reminds me of Jim Rockford when he takes his 38 snubby out of the cookie jar -
I don't shoot it; I just point it!
I don't shoot it; I just point it!
Watch it man I’m a civilian!
As stated, by another poster, humans are right more mild than deer; but yeah roughly the same size as deer, I'll agree there.
I've also watched piles of whitetail deer (both crop damage and hunted) wad up and lay dead from the whimpy 223. MANY more than most hunters kill in several lifetimes. Unless one has tried it on a large sample size, it's just guessing. Those that have know..
Not trying to argue and done after this. Regardless of your thoughts, it's way better than a sharp stick. I wish anyone in harms way from evils of this world to be well served by one.
joshb
Gold $$ Contributor
Hmm...I have a little 44mag Ruger Carbine, but it only holds 4 rounds. I have a 44 mag pistol that holds 6. I have a Winchester 1886 45/70 that holds 4. My pump 12 guage holds 6. Maybe I’ll carry the pistol and the 45/70 and let my wife clean up with the shotgun.
That’s enough “knock down” power.
So, with those guns, I’d have a total of 16 rounds before a reload. OR I could carry an AR with a 30 round mag and a couple extra mags in my pockets for a total of 90 rounds. I could still carry the 44 pistol for the “big guys”, I guess.
That’s enough “knock down” power.So, with those guns, I’d have a total of 16 rounds before a reload. OR I could carry an AR with a 30 round mag and a couple extra mags in my pockets for a total of 90 rounds. I could still carry the 44 pistol for the “big guys”, I guess.
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Lots wounded with .223s as well. Little deer react differently than big deer, and anytime you can get close and make a headshot then anything works. I won't dispute that a .223 with good bullets can perform adequately on smaller deer at reasonable ranges. An AK-47 with FMJs can kill an elephant, and humans used to kill mammoths with sharp sticks. And course there are always one off scenarios. None of those are optimum........
And my hope is the AR scares them away like it did with the McCloskeys.
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Ar = dna sample device to suppliment trespass/ vandalism/ terrorism / crime scene video.
Every gun owner should applaud the couple for proving why every American citizen should be armed. All the whining about classes or muzzle discipline or whatever other BS thing you want to cry about is moot. That couple showed the power of the people to defend themselves when those paid to do it won't. Untrained, over weight, poor discipline and still repelled a mob of more than 300.
Good on them.
I hope more people do the same.
Good on them.
I hope more people do the same.
After 4 pages of posts @mikecr hit the nail on the head. All this talk about about wimpy vs. not so wimpy is little more that hypothetical math. I agree wholeheartedly with a lot of you that the mere presentation of an AR-15 style of weapons have a great deterrent effect.
With that said, looking down the barrel of a 12 ga. is akin to staring down the Holland tunnel. The only difference is there is NO light at the end of this tunnel. I have been teaching CCW in Ohio since the law was passed in 2004. I am asked at nearly every class what my preferred home defense weapon of choice is. I simply respond "a 12 gauge" knowing where the conversation will go. Generally, someone will say something to the effect of "oh yeah man, working the slide on an 870 will send them running".
Maybe so, but why would you give up your position of cover/concealment in your own home? I go on to tell them I prefer to give loud verbal commands to leave, I am armed. (shortened for brevity's sake). When asked what is in my Browning A5 I tell them, in the pipe is a high velocity trap load with 7 1/2 shot. The next three are nickel plated #00 buckshot running 1,400 fps. The final round is a slug. When ask why the trap load, I explain that if verbal warnings don't work, the 1st shot will prove to the intruded that I'm serious about protecting me and mine. Besides, I tell them drywall repair is much easier.
If he still wants to fight, I've got the solution to the problem in the next 4 rounds. Finally, it is very defensible in court and a methodical escalation in the use of deadly force.
Lastly, the training time with a shotgun to be proficient at close range is minimal compared to anything else.
I hope this helps,
Lloyd
With that said, looking down the barrel of a 12 ga. is akin to staring down the Holland tunnel. The only difference is there is NO light at the end of this tunnel. I have been teaching CCW in Ohio since the law was passed in 2004. I am asked at nearly every class what my preferred home defense weapon of choice is. I simply respond "a 12 gauge" knowing where the conversation will go. Generally, someone will say something to the effect of "oh yeah man, working the slide on an 870 will send them running".
Maybe so, but why would you give up your position of cover/concealment in your own home? I go on to tell them I prefer to give loud verbal commands to leave, I am armed. (shortened for brevity's sake). When asked what is in my Browning A5 I tell them, in the pipe is a high velocity trap load with 7 1/2 shot. The next three are nickel plated #00 buckshot running 1,400 fps. The final round is a slug. When ask why the trap load, I explain that if verbal warnings don't work, the 1st shot will prove to the intruded that I'm serious about protecting me and mine. Besides, I tell them drywall repair is much easier.
If he still wants to fight, I've got the solution to the problem in the next 4 rounds. Finally, it is very defensible in court and a methodical escalation in the use of deadly force.
Lastly, the training time with a shotgun to be proficient at close range is minimal compared to anything else.
I hope this helps,
Lloyd
I'm with 1shot but let me tell you this you don't even want to get shot with a 22 long rifle in the arm because you would be crying like a baby! If you want to go up against a crowed I'll take the Model 590 Mossburg with a 20 round Mag. Believe me you would have them pilled up like cord wood. And like 1shot said never give up your position in your home.
Joe Salt
Joe Salt
bluealtered
Silver $$ Contributor
Let me add this about wimpy and macho bullets, Here are just two examples of what happens when you squeeze that trigger. While out coyote hunting i called in a yodie at maybe 20', he was facing me and i shot him in the chest with a 55gr vmax. It went through him and out the back side not causing any stopping damage because the bullet was going so fast it didn't have time to open and he didn't know he was dead.
While care taking a ranch which had a nice in-closed porch/deck one night during a snow storm a bobcat came in on the deck and since we had a new puppy who was not house broken the deck screen door was open, because he was out on the deck he started barking and ran off the into the storm to get away from the bobcat. I was able to see what had happened because one of the kitchen windows looked out on the deck as well as the back door to the cabin being there. I grabbed the 30-30 that was sitting by the door and went out on the deck which put me about 6' from the bobcat, it hissed and i shot it. It jumped up on my saw bench and was out the door into the snow., it didn't know it was dead either. Yes the cat and the coyote were dead but the bullets were traveling so fast they didn't open so it took longer to work.
I am like everybody else here, i will use whatever firearm i have near me if and when i am forced to, but i also take the time to place the proper weapon where it will stop the problem the fastest with the least amount of damage to everything around me. I want my shot to bounce around inside of the target, not go three houses down the street killing everything in it's path. If you puff out your chest and go all macho instead of thinking first you may just very well spend the rest of your life living with the kind of people you never wanted to meet. Your job is to be prepared to stop the problem with the least amount of damage to others around you, save the Rambo stuff for the movies.
While care taking a ranch which had a nice in-closed porch/deck one night during a snow storm a bobcat came in on the deck and since we had a new puppy who was not house broken the deck screen door was open, because he was out on the deck he started barking and ran off the into the storm to get away from the bobcat. I was able to see what had happened because one of the kitchen windows looked out on the deck as well as the back door to the cabin being there. I grabbed the 30-30 that was sitting by the door and went out on the deck which put me about 6' from the bobcat, it hissed and i shot it. It jumped up on my saw bench and was out the door into the snow., it didn't know it was dead either. Yes the cat and the coyote were dead but the bullets were traveling so fast they didn't open so it took longer to work.
I am like everybody else here, i will use whatever firearm i have near me if and when i am forced to, but i also take the time to place the proper weapon where it will stop the problem the fastest with the least amount of damage to everything around me. I want my shot to bounce around inside of the target, not go three houses down the street killing everything in it's path. If you puff out your chest and go all macho instead of thinking first you may just very well spend the rest of your life living with the kind of people you never wanted to meet. Your job is to be prepared to stop the problem with the least amount of damage to others around you, save the Rambo stuff for the movies.
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For all the armchair quarterbacks and instructors, the most important question was not mentioned. Who is the DA? Whatever your level of training or just instinct to survive is only part of the equation. Even if it is within the law, it might not matter. Your life is going to suck like its never sucked before.
"Circuit Attorney Kimberly Gardner said her office was working with police to investigate, saying she was alarmed because “peaceful protesters were met by guns and a violent assault.”
"Circuit Attorney Kimberly Gardner said her office was working with police to investigate, saying she was alarmed because “peaceful protesters were met by guns and a violent assault.”
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Someone posted that the woman was holding her pistol like it was a water hose.
The lack of any firearms experience by either of them was painfully clear to those of us who take ownership more seriously.
I still consider it overall a win for the "good guys" because 1) non gun people became gun owners and 2) they successfully (if inelegantly) used those guns to ensure the safety of themselves and their property.
All the more so because some anecdotal evidence suggests that until very recently the couple would likely have supported additional restrictions on ownership.
shortgrass
Silver $$ Contributor
I wonder how many of their neighbors have headed to the gun shop?
jpretle
Silver $$ Contributor
As a former LE firearm instructor, I am in full agreement w/ the OP. However, 1Shot covered something that is generally not addressed in concealed carry instruction and general firearms handling---the 'downrange' effects of projectiles. If you are getting trained in firearm handling, you should also be 'trained' in 'forward thinking'---what happens after the shot???
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