A Different View

[Nick Caprinolo]

I'll take a good old AR15 in an urban area. To me it is the best platform in a situation like this. Plenty of rounds in one magazine to stop a lot of people. The people in these demonstrations are not hardened veterans. Once struck by any type of bullet, they will stop in their tracks and head for the nearest help. No, an AR will not necessarily put on the ground from impact but it will cause enough pain to scare the hell out of them. Sure a hunting rifle will do more damage but most are bolt action and only load 4 or 5 rounds, in the magazine.

By the way, there are better videos, floating around, about this incident. What you see on CNN and Fox only show a small portion of what really happened.

 

[Coleridge]

ANYBODY that thinks a 223/5.56 is "wimpy" hasn't ever spent much time behind one with fragile bullets.

FMJ/ball ammo that meet NATO specs were designed to wound. Vmax, small caliber spitzer and hollow points are made to send shit flying (and will)...

In case one has not noticed, the depth a a mans chest is a bit more shallow than bear or moose... Just say'n.

 

[338 dude]

The Media is causing all of this. They show film clips day after day after day of “peaceful protests’ turning into riots, with massive property destruction. No wonder people are worried and scared of the protestors. So now they make a big deal about two frightened home owners trying to protect themselves and their property because they’re armed. (2 against 100....wonder why?)
Why don’t they ever discuss a solution for the day to day “black on black” crimes that occur in every city across the country? No mention of MS 13 and those killings? Because it doesn’t fit their agenda! They are simply trying to inflame the public on both sides.
Granted, those McClosky folks need training. I applaud them for what they did. I would have reacted the same way! Maybe I would have “filmed” better with a muzzle down presentation but the Media wouldn’t care. The story would have run the same. “Rich armed white folk threaten poor protestors”!

Like most of us I am tired of seeing all this violence and things on TV with nothing being done and you are correct it is the fault of the media for pushing that narrative I can only hope with all the new gun sales new gun owners and people that never own firearms before that the media is waking up a sleeping giant and I believe this will all work against them in the end if that happens the best part would Be they did it to themselves and actually ended up helping all of us

 

[338 dude]

The couple demonstrated restraint.
Hell, MY wife would have dropped a dozen before I could have talked her down.
And then our lives would be ruined

The tragedy in this is demonstrated by our compromised justice system, and continued silence from the RHINO party.

Gotta love that girl!!!

 

[284winner]

Compare that to what a .270 would do with a 130 grain ballistic tip at 20 feet.

Beside the point. The 223 is not a round to reckon with. Get hit with a 223 round and tell me it won't take the fight out of you. It's a great round, don't kid yourself. Sure many many have more power but in this case, it's unneeded power. Bipeds fold alot easier than quadrepeds. Once hit, humans know what's happening. I had an AR in my vehicle the better part of my 35 year LE career. It earned it's reputation for good reason. Yes, they are intimidating to everyone looking down the business end of one. Any one that thinks they are wimpy hasn't been in that place. Sorry for the rant, kinda on topic. Either way, they held their ground regardless of their lack of training. Kudos to them.

 

[Dessert]

I agree with 284 winner. There is a lot of bravado when you’re sitting at home comfortably behind the keyboard. I personally applaud this couple. I hope I have the guts to stand up like they did. Berating them for the way they held their guns is just plain pissy.

 

[INTJ]

I'll take a good old AR15 in an urban area. To me it is the best platform in a situation like this. Plenty of rounds in one magazine to stop a lot of people. The people in these demonstrations are not hardened veterans. Once struck by any type of bullet, they will stop in their tracks and head for the nearest help. No, an AR will not necessarily put on the ground from impact but it will cause enough pain to scare the hell out of them. Sure a hunting rifle will do more damage but most are bolt action and only load 4 or 5 rounds, in the magazine.

By the way, there are better videos, floating around, about this incident. What you see on CNN and Fox only show a small portion of what really happened.

Yep and that is why I own an AR in the wimpy 5.56 cal. I want the mob to go away because they are afraid. I am glad they are ignorant to ballistics.....

 

[INTJ]

ANYBODY that thinks a 223/5.56 is "wimpy" hasn't ever spent much time behind one with fragile bullets.

FMJ/ball ammo that meet NATO specs were designed to wound. Vmax, small caliber spitzer and hollow points are made to send shit flying (and will)...

In case one has not noticed, the depth a a mans chest is a bit more shallow than bear or moose... Just say'n.

And anybody who thinks a .223 is a powerful round just doesn't have any experience behind rounds that truly are powerful. And in case you haven't noticed, deer are roughly the size of people.

 

[INTJ]

Beside the point. The 223 is not a round to reckon with. Get hit with a 223 round and tell me it won't take the fight out of you. It's a great round, don't kid yourself. Sure many many have more power but in this case, it's unneeded power. Bipeds fold alot easier than quadrepeds. Once hit, humans know what's happening. I had an AR in my vehicle the better part of my 35 year LE career. It earned it's reputation for good reason. Yes, they are intimidating to everyone looking down the business end of one. Any one that thinks they are wimpy hasn't been in that place. Sorry for the rant, kinda on topic. Either way, they held their ground regardless of their lack of training. Kudos to them.

There are a LOT of examples of people soaking up multiple hits from 5.56 rounds and not being stopped. I am told on average it takes seven rounds from a typical 5.56 AR to stop someone. None of this is new news.

We all know why the 5.56mm round was developed. In WWII, 1/3 of causalities were caused by aimed fire, 1/3 by stray fire, and 1/3 by shrapnel. Getting more
rounds out there was a logical way to increase the causality rate. City boys could get proficient with it more quickly too.

The 5.56mm wasn't selected because it was the most effective round, but they have built a system around it where it is one component of a very effective battle force. If it was the end all, then military snipers would be using it. It works for police snipers because of the much shorter engagement range.

But face it, it is a WIMPY, WIMPY, WIMPY, varmint round compared to the majority of big game rounds. With the right billets and carful shot placement it is adequate for deer sized game, but it absolutely is not optimum for deer.

 

[ebb]

What the couple did with their guns would get you prosecuted during normal times in the state of Florida. When I received my training to get my CCP the instructor told us that pointing a gun or firing a warning shot to try and defuse that situation was not acceptable in Florida. The gun was to remain holstered or at low ready till such time as you thought to survive this confrontation with out great bodily harm or death I need to shoot this person. Then don't brandish shoot. However with the castle law and a fence if some one comes through the fence and you are in fear of your life, you have every right to shoot.

 

[ebb]

It was my understanding that the 5.56mm was developed so that the soldier could carry more ammo cause it was lighter.

 

[INTJ]

It was my understanding that the 5.56mm was developed so that the soldier could carry more ammo cause it was lighter.

That was part of the ability to get more bullets in the air as a result of the casualty study.

 

[INTJ]

I am actually quite amused that my using the term "wimpy" in reference to the .223/5.56mm has riled some. Of course, when that happens I am bound to double down.

So would it help if I told these guys that I happen to LIKE this wimpy round in an AR platform, and that is what I chose over an AR-10 in .308, or a 6.8 SPC, or 6.5 Grendel for my mob defense weapon?

Along with the visual deterrence of the AR platform, the 5.56 makes a lot in this role. It's a lighter weight package, it's easy to carry a lot of ammo, and it's less likely to over penetrate and cause unintended damage. That fact that the police use it as well makes it seem like a reasonable defense weapon over something more powerful.

Wimpy is good.......

 

[284winner]

There are a LOT of examples of people soaking up multiple hits from 5.56 rounds and not being stopped. I am told on average it takes seven rounds from a typical 5.56 AR to stop someone. None of this is new news.

We all know why the 5.56mm round was developed. In WWII, 1/3 of causalities were caused by aimed fire, 1/3 by stray fire, and 1/3 by shrapnel. Getting more
rounds out there was a logical way to increase the causality rate. City boys could get proficient with it more quickly too.

The 5.56mm wasn't selected because it was the most effective round, but they have built a system around it where it is one component of a very effective battle force. If it was the end all, then military snipers would be using it. It works for police snipers because of the much shorter engagement range.

But face it, it is a WIMPY, WIMPY, WIMPY, varmint round compared to the majority of big game rounds. With the right billets and carful shot placement it is adequate for deer sized game, but it absolutely is not optimum for deer.

We'll have to agree to disagree. I mean isn't that what these forums are about, Different opinions ? FMJs don't stop all offenders when hit, No. No expansion so no trauma to organs. Use TAP ammo and a whole different story. Again, sounds like your set on the 223 is wimpy. My position is it's adequate for personal defense but not optimum.

 

[joshb]

It was my understanding that the 5.56mm was developed so that the soldier could carry more ammo cause it was lighter.

Yup, and it was confirmed that it’s high velocity caused an adequate shock wave when it hit a target. The cartridge is deadly. Nuff said. No, it’s not going to “knock some one off their feet”. That’s Hollywood. For close range, I’d rather use a 12 guage with 00 buck!

 

[INTJ]

We'll have to agree to disagree. I mean isn't that what these forums are about, Different opinions ? FMJs don't stop all offenders when hit, No. No expansion so no trauma to organs. Use TAP ammo and a whole different story. Again, sounds like your set on the 223 is wimpy. My position is it's adequate for personal defense but not optimum.

That actually my position as well. Adequate but not optimum.........and wimpy

 

[joshb]

While we’re wandering down this road, let’s do the 9mm vs 45 acp argument too!

 

[mikecr]

What the couple did with their guns would get you prosecuted during normal times in the state of Florida.

Same in North Carolina. Simply going outside the house to confront them, armed (with anything) or not, removes 'self defense' as credible here.
If no witnesses, a blood trail could be scooped up and path drained from just inside the house to assailant.
Good enough for some (good) police around here & worth a try.

It used to be in 1980s South Carolina that you had to prove you made an attempt to flee your home for safety.
If you stood your ground -manslaughter.
If you stepped away from the home toward conflict -manhunting.
If you setup a trap or barrier that injured someone -booby trapping.
I understand it's not that way there now, but I did see 2 fellow service men and another's wife go to prison for these charges in Charleston.

With the Tulsa couple you could add politics to it. As in politics overrules all laws, regulations, and policies.
Given this obvious state of our nation, they are screwed..

 

[284winner]

That actually my position as well. Adequate but not optimum.........and wimpy

It's kinda funny actually. Optimum and adequate are both just perspectives of people's opinions. I always say there's no such thing as overkill. Basically meaning if you got it, use it, plain and simple. I'm taking my 338 LM improved on a whitetail hunt this fall. Range, maybe 200 yards max. Is it overkill ? Nope not IMO. Is it necessary ? Nope. It's just my choice since I own it. A dead whitetail is a dead whitetail.Ordinarily the 6.5-284, .270, .284, .308 would be my first choice but WTH, why not. Any who, it's kinda one of those deals. Whatever makes you happy, use it. I know my limitations with whatever I carry afield or anywhere for that matter. One other factor that should be thought over in a suburban area would be safety using a rifle especially for an untrained civilian. There are probably other better options such as a shotgun. Close range nightmare if used with proper ammunition. Again, maybe not optimum for stopping power for a trained shooter but possibly the better choice for an untrained defender.

 

[INTJ]

It's kinda funny actually. Optimum and adequate are both just perspectives of people's opinions. I always say there's no such thing as overkill. Basically meaning if you got it, use it, plain and simple. I'm taking my 338 LM improved on a whitetail hunt this fall. Range, maybe 200 yards max. Is it overkill ? Nope not IMO. Is it necessary ? Nope. It's just my choice since I own it. A dead whitetail is a dead whitetail.Ordinarily the 6.5-284, .270, .284, .308 would be my first choice but WTH, why not. Any who, it's kinda one of those deals. Whatever makes you happy, use it. I know my limitations with whatever I carry afield or anywhere for that matter. One other factor that should be thought over in a suburban area would be safety using a rifle especially for an untrained civilian. There are probably other better options such as a shotgun. Close range nightmare if used with proper ammunition. Again, maybe not optimum for stopping power for a trained shooter but possibly the better choice for an untrained defender.

I think a carbine in a pistol caliber is better for in the house than a .223. Maybe even better that a shotgun. Like you said, training is key.

I too don't believe there is overkill. There is adequate and optimum, depending on the application. A .270 is great for deer and adequate for elk, a big .338 is probably optimum for elk. I hunt deer with a fairly lightweight 300 WSM and my elk gun is now a 33-28 Nosler. If I ever get to hunt big bears I'll the 416 and I'll use the 458 Lott if I get to hunt Cape Buffalo.

Some would say all that is overkill. I even took some small hogs with a 416 Rem once......