90 VLDs blowing up

[Fuzzy1968]

Howdy, looking for some input and to see if anyone has had this happen. Recently put together a screaming 223 with a Kreiger 1-6.5, 4 groove barrel 30" and have great success at 300 and 1000 yd shoots putting up some very respectable scores. Today I shot a mid range FTR match and was trucking along rather nicely nailing 10's and X's and all of a sudden I get headlights and see no impact in the berm. Of course I panic and blame the puller for not being able to find my tiny bullet hole. No adjustments made, same conditions and I fire another shot - an X. This happens 5 more times in my string- no impact on target and no visual on the berm. I suffer through another relay with the same results. I succeeded in talking the match director into letting me set up my lab radar on the third string to troubleshoot a little and see if the "misses" have any velocity deviations, since I'm in no way of being competitive, he allows it. All velocities on the"misses" were consistent with the hits. I actually had a 10 shot string of 4.2 for SD and 11 for ES (which amazed me).
My velocity is right at 2850 with 23.8 H4895, lapua brass, CCI BR primers.

The best I can figure is the bullets were coming apart prior to the 600 yd mark. I know anything is possible and this is what I would like to blame it on. The lot # for this batch is 9681. Has anyone else had something similar?

 

[BP1]

I have only shot them out to 500,but a few guys on here have had them come apart on them.I think skiutah said once he had a certain round count on his barrel he had the problem occur.I may be going to the texas state shoot at the end of April and going to shoot them at a 1000 it ought to be fun seeing how I have never took them past 500 yards.

 

[stacy]

INTERESTING I'LL CHECK MY LOT NUMBER I SHOOT THEM ALOT

 

[ronemus]

I had this happen with a new barrel that apparently had a bur or other imperfection. I used Tubb's FinalFinish and the barrel performed normally after, although it pushed the throat ~0.020" IIRC (I used the full course). The FinalFinish set is much less than the cost of another barrel, so it may be worth a try.

 

[skiutah02]

Howdy, looking for some input and to see if anyone has had this happen. Recently put together a screaming 223 with a Kreiger 1-6.5, 4 groove barrel 30" and have great success at 300 and 1000 yd shoots putting up some very respectable scores. Today I shot a mid range FTR match and was trucking along rather nicely nailing 10's and X's and all of a sudden I get headlights and see no impact in the berm. Of course I panic and blame the puller for not being able to find my tiny bullet hole. No adjustments made, same conditions and I fire another shot - an X. This happens 5 more times in my string- no impact on target and no visual on the berm. I suffer through another relay with the same results. I succeeded in talking the match director into letting me set up my lab radar on the third string to troubleshoot a little and see if the "misses" have any velocity deviations, since I'm in no way of being competitive, he allows it. All velocities on the"misses" were consistent with the hits. I actually had a 10 shot string of 4.2 for SD and 11 for ES (which amazed me).
My velocity is right at 2850 with 23.8 H4895, lapua brass, CCI BR primers.

The best I can figure is the bullets were coming apart prior to the 600 yd mark. I know anything is possible and this is what I would like to blame it on. The lot # for this batch is 9681. Has anyone else had something similar?

Yes. This is a message I sent Greg Taylor about 1.5 years ago. He was curious as to why I chose to shoot my 2nd best rifle/bullet at 2015 MR FCN individuals rather than my best rifle (which I used for the MR team match, taking 3rd).

It is unedited, but relevant. I believe I have shared it on this site before.

http://faculty.cord.edu/rutherf/12/90vldblowingup.pdf

Drew

 

[Snuggie]

I just started shooting the 90's in a Bartlein 6.5 tw 5R 30 in. Use 24.5 gr Varget with Wolf srmag primers. It has 90 rounds through it so far and it's a laser! Hope I don't see this prob! Good info to have, thanks!

 

[raptor1ronin]

Had the same problem with my Bartlein 1-6/7. It all started around the 650 round count. I always thought maybe the load was to hot but after seeing that other people were around the same it made me believe that it was a cleaning issue. Typical I go for carbon but go easy on copper. Nope my barrel loves to be squeaky clean. Bought some Boretech copper CU2 and chameleon cleaner and whamo good to go. After every match I clean this puppy. I have a cool video of the rounds blowing up 35 yards out crazy.

 

[r bose]

Had the same problem with my Bartlein 1-6/7. It all started around the 650 round count. I always thought maybe the load was to hot but after seeing that other people were around the same it made me believe that it was a cleaning issue. Typical I go for carbon but go easy on copper. Nope my barrel loves to be squeaky clean. Bought some Boretech copper CU2 and chameleon cleaner and whamo good to go. After every match I clean this puppy. I have a cool video of the rounds blowing up 35 yards out crazy.

I also find 90's do not like dirty barrels. I rarely go past 2 matches before I clean thoroughly. I use a nylon brush w/appropriate solvent trying to remove any carbon, copper, powder residue. Carbon rings are very hard and will scar bullet jackets and pinch down the necks on your brass causing issues/scaring jackets making bullets blowing up. Also, I always use a cleaning rod guide. If not, you can create a burr in your throat and that will not go well.

Have never personally lost a 90 before reaching the target.

 

[Ned Ludd]

I clean all my rifles to essentially bare metal every single time they are fired, regardless of whether it was 10 shots, or 75-100 shots in a match. My cleaning process involves successive steps with Boretech Carbon Remover, Boretech Cu2+ Copper Remover, Hoppes #9, Kroil, and finally with Hoppes Gun Oil, followed by 3-4 dry patches, then storage in the safe. All I can tell you is that I've never yet had a problem with the 90s coming apart that I know of (fingers crossed), and that proper cleaning does not damage a barrel. I think from Drew's and others' observations, one key to preventing jacket failure with 90 VLDs is simply to keep the rifle clean.

 

[Fuzzy1968]

All, I do appreciate all the input and advice. I am probably the most anal out of the group when it comes to cleaning, so in my heart, I know that a dirty barrel is not causing the bullets to blow. Greg, my routine pretty much mirrors yours.
Two weeks prior I had well over 80 rounds through the gun with zero defects at a 1000yd match. My son shot it the week prior to that with a couple clean scores at 300. (Proud papa moment) I have not gotten around to sending Berger an email yet but will this week. Interestingly enough, the second day of the shoot this happened at (which I did not attend) the match director was mucking around on the 300 yard line and he found one of my cores with the jacket missing (or so we assume its mine, he said it was very fresh looking).

Anyway, thanks for chiming in and providing your valuable advice. I have switched lot numbers and if it happens again with a different lot..... Ill chamber up a new barrel.

 

[Ned Ludd]

In that event, I would strongly suggest using a borescope to check the lead/throat area, as well as further down the bore, just to see if you can spot any abnormalities that might account for the jackets tearing on the way out. Another thing to look at would simply be your MV. I actually destroyed almost 80 pieces of brass in a match at 103, the same one where you fired a clean with your 200? load in the first match. IIRC, the temp was reasonably warm that day, and I was using virgin brass for which I had not reduced the load to account for the increased temp. I blew out the pockets on every single piece of brass. My point being that I always find the MV for fire formed brass increases slightly. Further, the 90 VLDs humming along at about 2850 fps represent a pretty stout load. Even small things like temp can jack up the pressure and velocity significantly. I'd also re-check the MV just to be sure it (and the pressure) hasn't crept up in the last couple months. However, it sounds more than likely there is something going on in the lead/throat/barrel that may be causing your issues, or possibly some defective bullets in the Lot you're using. Hopefully, you can figure out whatever the culprit is.

 

[243winxb]

http://benchrest.com/showthread.php?49336-Berger-bullet-failure-test

Newer bullets should have thicker jackets?? See post 9 .

 

[jsthntn247]

I've never had one blow up in a 6.5 or 7 twist. It's got to be something in the throat or a bur in the barrel

 

[dbramley]

Want to see what the 90's look like blowing up? Shooting electronic target, some part of the bullet made it to the target, but was very low and right. Don't mind the commentary of a couple of chuckle heads!

 

[Prricci49]

Well Dan's video above was taken while I was shooting so it is proof they do blow up. Was shooting a 61/2 twist crux 30" barrel. First time it happened was just like Fuzzy. I tried everything. Different loads, different bullets, and still blew up. Had barrel slugged by several knowledgeable people and no problem. Borescoped by these same people could see nothing. Sent back to Brux and they lapped it again. Still blew up bullets. Put new crown on barrel and still blew up. After 1700 some odd rounds I have given up on the 6.5 twist barrel. I have been using a 7 twist with no problem but do not think it shoots as good as the 6.5 shot when bullets did not blow up. I am going to try a 63/4 twist crux barrel and see how that works. If that also causes problems I am going to just shoot the 80.5s.

 

[jsthntn247]

What was your lot of bullets?

 

[Ned Ludd]

Prricci49 - Your specific Lot# of bullets, rifle caliber, and your actual velocity would be useful information and greatly appreciated by those of us routinely using the 90 VLDs. I could make guesses from the barrel length, but there have recently been some posts regarding the use of the heavy .224" bullets in .22-250, so I don't want to try and "guess" what you were using. It has been known for some time that earlier versions of the SMK 90 gr bullet liked to come apart if pushed too hard. Based on the info in this thread, it wouldn't surprise me if there is a certain combination of velocity and twist rate, that above which, the chance of this happening greatly increases, regardless of anything else.

 

[XTR]

Lot numbers are of interest here too.

I've shot several thousand in my 223 and never lost one. I'd like to know the lot numbers and load info before I load for the Sinclairs next month.

 

[Ned Ludd]

Lot numbers are of interest here too.

I've shot several thousand in my 223 and never lost one. I'd like to know the lot numbers and load info before I load for the Sinclairs next month.

I was thinking the same thing...in addition to fervently hoping my current Lot number was a different Lot number than the ones "blowing up" .

 

[Prricci49]

lot # A211 that is the latest and the ones on video there were other lot numbers but no longer have those.
Charge was anywhere from 23.8 to 24.5. The video charge was 24.2gr Target.
Veloscity was 2836 in video to 2817 with lower charge
Caliber is 223 Remington 30" Brux barrel.
In no way was the charge really hot. Never had any pressure signs at the 24.5gr charge. Shot in cool weather and hot weather. Shot in Ohio and in Arizona.
Bullets blew up early in string of fire and mid string and late in the string. Could not say was because was heat from barrel because it did it in cold barrel. As I stated before sent barrel back to Brux and they could find nothing wrong with barrel but related it for me. Still blew up bullets. Put on new crown and still blew up bullets. That barrel is no longer in my possession.